2013 KING OF THE STREETS "put your money where you mouth is" thread

[gbracing81]

This is going to end in a pile of bitching. JP if I were you I would set the rules closer to what dragweek does or maybe NMCA/NMRA/LSX Shootout true street rules.

 

That way it takes the grey area away, people know where they stand, and you can seperate out via power adders vs NA.

 

Quoted for truth. If it's more or less open and all you need is a 30-50 mile cruise I may as well save myself some trouble and go hang out with Dan for a few and give him my $100.

[gbracing81]

4) Fastest 1-Mile speed...

 

That would hard to do for more fast street cars because not all street cars have the required safety equipment to run at a place to accurately measure top 1 mile speed. Is this competition going to be for street cars or "street cars"?

[GSXRAntwon]

I can be participant?

[imstock2]

Well he done said gutted cars is still street. If you can plate it race it.

[coltboostin]

Like the idea.

Good idea to separate street cars vs others would be to meet then hold like a 20-30 mile cruise to a restaurant. 1. To get food 2. Find out if the cars are road worthy.

I know that in the rroc meets for the cars to be judged they drive 50-100miles

 

I like it-but again this is a YEAR LONG deal, and not just in C bus- if people raise issue about a car being street worthy, we will address it. We are all big boys here.

 

whp/Liter favors small motors too much.

 

And Auto's have the advantage for ET. Does that mean we should give 5 speeds a time bump? I will try to even the playing field but everyone will not be happy either way.

[coltboostin]

I can be participant?

 

Duh

 

Well he done said gutted cars is still street. If you can plate it race it.

 

If you take the seats and interior our of your C6 or GTR to get a better ET/mph, I don't think anyone would complain. Again, if there is a questions people will raise it.

 

This is going to end in a pile of bitching. JP if I were you I would set the rules closer to what dragweek does or maybe NMCA/NMRA/LSX Shootout true street rules.

 

That way it takes the grey area away, people know where they stand, and you can separate out via power adders vs NA.

 

There will be some ground-rules established-and some adjustment made for NA cars and possibly certain dyno types. We will see. There seems to be enough interest for it to warrant the effort.

[imstock2]

Whp/liter is just crazy.. Instance a 2.4l making 400whp would beat out any v8 that's somewhat streetable.. Unless you can tell me what my 6.6l v8 would need to beat that hp/liter.. I think power to weight ratio but add hp and torque to get the winner. Obvis a gutted "street" (race car) import would have the best hp to weight but if you add in the torqueTo weight ratio with the combo it'll somewhat even the playing field. I'm only trying I make this dyno thing more reasonable

[coltboostin]

As for questions about dyno-s I have done much research over the years-this is a great read.

 

"I have written pages and pages of posts on this topic on various forums. Here's a little write up I did a few weeks ago. . .

 

DynoJets are inertia dynos, and have been around for years, much longer than any type of load cell dyno. Inertia dyno's work on the principle of the acceleration of a known mass over time. Their rollers are the known mass. Weighing in at over 2500lbs or so. Your car gets strapped down to the machine, and the dyno collects it's data. It is able to calculate horsepower by measuring the acceleration in rpm of the rollers in regards to RPM. This is why gearing can affect the dyno results, more on that in a bit. Now that the dyno has recorded the horsepower curve, it can take the integral of that curve and get the torque curve. Since the dyno’s power calculations are based on the acceleration of mass over time in regards to RPM, gearing is very important. Since a vehicle with a lower gear ratio can accelerate the mass to a higher speed using less engine RPM, it will show a higher horsepower number than a car with a higher gear ratio. If a car is able to accelerate the dyno’s rollers from 200rpm (roller) to 300rpm (roller)in 1500rpm (engine), then the dyno is going to record more power than a car that did that in 2000rpm (engine).

 

Now we go to Mustang dyno’s and other loaded dyno’s. Our Mustang MD-1100SE dyno’s rollers weigh 2560lbs. That is the actual mass of the rollers, much like the DynoJet. That’s about where all the similarities end. When we get a car on our dyno, we enter two constants for the dyno’s algorithms. One being the vehicle weight, the other being what’s called “Horsepower At 50mph”. This is a number that represents how much horsepower it takes for the vehicle to push the air to maintain 50mph. This is used as the aerodynamic force. Mustang dyno’s are also equipped with a eddy currant load cell. Think of a magnetic brake from a freight train. This magnetic brake can apply enough resistance to stall a big rig. Off one side of the eddy currant load cell, there is a cantilever with a 5volt reference load sensor (strain gage). As the rollers are spinning this load sensor is measuring the actual torque being applied. So as the rollers spin, the load sensor is measuring the force being applied, sending that information to the dyno computer, taking into account the two constants entered earlier, computing the amount of resistance needed to be applied to the rollers to load the car so that the force of the rollers resistance is as close to the force the car sees on the street. The dyno is then able to calculate the total force being applied to the rollers in torque, and then taking the derivative of that torque curve to arrive at the horsepower curve. Since torque is an actual force of nature, like gravity and electricity, it can be directly measured. Horsepower is an idea that was thought up by man, and cannot be directly measured, only calculated.

 

I like to state it like this. . . I start by asking how much your car weighs, lets say 3500lbs. Now you take your car and you make a make a WOT rip in your tallest non overdrive gear, how much mass is your engine working against? 3500lbs right? Now you strap your car on a DynoJet and you make a WOT in the same gear, how much mass is your engine working against? 2500lbs right? Now you strap your car on a Mustang dyno, how much mass is your engine working against? 2500lbs. Plus the resistance being applied by the eddy current generator. We’ve seen anywhere for 470lbs of resistance to over 700lbs of resistance as measured in PAU force in the data logs. So which one is more accurate? Well they their both accurate. If a DynoJet dyno says you made 460rwhp, then you made 460rwhp. If a Mustang dyno says you made 460rwhp, you also made 460rwhp. Now which one of those numbers best represents what your car is doing when its on the street. That’s a different question.

 

The most important thing to remember is that a dyno is a testing tool. If the numbers keep increasing, then you’re doing the right thing. We try to look over at NET gain, instead of Peak HP numbers. A 30rwhp increase is a 30rwhp increase regardless of what dyno it is on.

 

Now I can address how to calculate the difference between one type of dyno and another. Simply put, you can’t. Because Mustang dyno’s have so many more variables, it’s not a simple percentage difference. We’ve had cars that made 422rwhp on our Dyno, two days later make 458rwhp on a DynoJet the next day. We’ve also had cars that made 550rwhp on our dyno, make 650+rwhp on a DynoJet a few days later at another shops Dyno Day. For instance, my 2002 Z28 with a forged internal LS6 Heads/Cam/Intake, makes 460rwhp on our dyno. I thought that was a little low, since I’ve had cam only LS6 Z06 vettes make 450rwhp. So I overlaid the dyno graphs. Guess what, the PAU force for my car was almost 200lbs more than the C5Z06 that made 450rwhp with cam only. So I entered the weight and horsepower at 50 number for a C5Z06 and did another horsepower rip with my car. The only reason I did that was to compare Apples to Apples. This time my car made 490rwhp, no other changes. Now I don’t go around saying my car made 490rwhp, I say what it actually did with the correct information entered into the computer. It made 460rwhp. Now if I ever get a chance to take it on a DynoJet (which I plan to in the spring), I have no doubts it’ll be over 500rwhp. I know this based on airflow and fuel consumption on the data logs.

 

But since we’re asked this question constantly we're fairly conservative, and hence tell our customers that the difference is closer to 6-7%, but as you make more power, and the more your car weighs, the difference increases as well. You must remember, Dyno's regardless of the type are tuning tools, and are in no means meant to tell people how fast their car is. Now which one is more "real world" is a totally different question. I like to explain it like this..... If you drive your car in a situation in which you have no mass and you're in a vacuum, so basically if you do intergalactic racing in space, use a DynoJet. If your car sees gravity, and has an aerodynamic coefficient, and you race on a planet called Earth, then use a Mustang Dyno"

[coltboostin]

And this excerpt (in reference to a Mustang dyno) is what I speak of. You can not make these corrections on a Dynojet. Changing temp/altitude will adjust the correction factor, but you *might get 5-8 HP out of it, and involves manipulating the program which is a pain since the Dynojet READS the ambient temp-and barometric pressure-and adjusts accordingly. On a mustang, the :load factors" are manually imputed by he operator (or picked form a directory int he program) for every car that goes on the dyno

For instance, my 2002 Z28 with a forged internal LS6 Heads/Cam/Intake, makes 460rwhp on our dyno. I thought that was a little low, since I’ve had cam only LS6 Z06 vettes make 450rwhp. So I overlaid the dyno graphs. Guess what, the PAU force for my car was almost 200lbs more than the C5Z06 that made 450rwhp with cam only. So I entered the weight and horsepower at 50 number for a C5Z06 and did another horsepower rip with my car. The only reason I did that was to compare Apples to Apples. This time my car made 490rwhp, no other changes.

 

I dont want to turn this into a dyno debate-but just be aware of the possible issues with giving a fixed % for dyno x vs dyno y.

[JuicedH22]

I can make a dyno read whatever I want it to. I was calibrating the mustang dyno the UC FSAE team uses, and showed them how with just a small adjustment on the calibration page, I could make a 450cc single cylinder show it was making over 200 ft-lbs of tq...

[coltboostin]

Yes, on a Mustang I have done the same. From what I know the same holds true for a Dynopak. The same cannot be done on a Dynojet.

 

I am not sure about a Superflow tough (there is an AWD SF in Akron)

[Geeesammy]

This thread is turning the V8 folk into Honda guys.

It's not going to be fair to everyone, it's called life.

Only way it would be fair to all is if you cut it down to classes separating it by cylinders, and power adder type.

I4 N/A

I4 boosted

I4 sprayed

6 cylinder n/a

Etc.

By then it won't be a king of the streets, it will be a king of each class per cylinders.

Compete with what you've got. It's life not everyone will be a winner. If you are thinking about whp/lb smaller cube cars for the most part will have the same advantages. A boosted Honda hatch comes in and takes the cake.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Geeesammy

[JuicedH22]

Why does a dyno matter for king of the STREET anyway? Or is there a king of the dyno class? King of the bench race?

[SPL_Josh]

If JP's car makes 700hp I expect this to do very well.

[imstock2]

It's easy to talk when your $ isn't on the line... I for once agree with juice.. Dyno shouldn't matter

[TurboNova]

I was just giving you shit.

 

From what I know of your car-I'd say YOUR car is a street car. You'd be in IMO

 

Figured...just busting your balls.

 

For me at least it would be a waste of money unless my car can go faster next year. and the whp per liter Id be fucked. there are a ton more cars who make more power more liter...but cool idea. Id still be interested though

[imstock2]

Looking in the kitchen... Going to be some nasty cars out this summer of 13! I'm excited

[Geeesammy]

It's easy to talk when your $ isn't on the line... I for once agree with juice.. Dyno shouldn't matter

 

Strangely I would be saying the exact same shit if my money was on the line. It would frankly be a waste of my time and the record keeping to enter in. Especially knowing what I'd be going against.

[imstock2]

You could mod your bike and come play would be sweet to get some go pros,make a video and sell it.. Between columbus and cleveland we will have a very nice group of fast rides and of course it would bad ass to get some bikes in it.. Don't matter d wigs gonna show up and take the wins

[DTM Brian]

Remember folks.

 

Law enforcement and the news media have access to this forum. Might want to take that into consideration. Last thing we need is Monica Durban and her Father getting on the evening news talking about the new street racing laws and CR.

[imstock2]

Street racing is a crime...we will have to go to Mexico on one of there undisclosed highways for this event. All racing involved will be computer generated.

[GTPSS]

Whp/liter is just crazy.. Instance a 2.4l making 400whp would beat out any v8 that's somewhat streetable.. Unless you can tell me what my 6.6l v8 would need to beat that hp/liter.. I think power to weight ratio but add hp and torque to get the winner. Obvis a gutted "street" (race car) import would have the best hp to weight but if you add in the torqueTo weight ratio with the combo it'll somewhat even the playing field. I'm only trying I make this dyno thing more reasonable

 

Agree 100%

 

I only make ~113whp per litre (6.8L@768awhp). I would assume a V8 would need well over 1000whp to be able to compete.

 

Now HP/TQ to weight...I'm in lol. 5200lbs.

[DTM Brian]

Street racing is a crime...we will have to go to Mexico on one of there undisclosed highways for this event. All racing involved will be computer generated.

 

You are pretty new to the CR scene Matt. If you had been around during the excitement on 71 a fews years back along with the Monica Durban situation you would understand why street racing is not such a hot topic around here like it was before.

 

I like to go out and have fun in my cars like the rest of us. However, those fun times can not be shared like they were in the past on here.

 

Best of luck JP with your event. Let me know if my dyno services are of any use for the event.

[Got-Boost?]

My thoughts on a TRUE "KOTS" competition if you are going to do a dyno hp/liter crap is to have TRUE STREET events. Straight line speed is only one aspect.

 

How about a points system for each category:

 

1) 1/4-mile ET

2) 1/4-mile speed

3) Braking 60-0

4) Slalom

5) Auto-X

6) 1-Mile speed

7) Street Cruise/Creature comforts

8) mpg

9) 60-130 times

Etc..etc..

 

Anyone can build a purpose build DRAG car/setup but how about a TRUE STREET machine...

 

That would hard to do for more fast street cars because not all street cars have the required safety equipment to run at a place to accurately measure top 1 mile speed. Is this competition going to be for street cars or "street cars"?

 

Other events like Texas don't require a full build. You can get away with a lot until you get 200+ speeds in a car...

[Geeesammy]

Sheit if bikes are included I'm in. Spray and pray