Farkas Posted April 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) This guy gets it. I am mad just thinking about it. You can have a light wheel that will not come apart before you first freaking oil change. Hell, an OE C5 Vette had magnesium wheels!! :dumb: As far as a track wheel being "weaker" that a street wheel, I 100% disagree with you, and I think anyone that has been on track would. That would be suggesting that slowly street driving your stanced’ car is harder on the wheel than a road race. Your shit came apart on a smooth, flat road. How would it hold up to the Chicane at Mid-Ohio? Or the Kink at speed? I understand your father has supported you and your brother in your endeavors with cars. Does he have a motorsport background? Ask him if a track wheel is weaker than an OE counterpart. Just think about what you’re implying here. Let me tell you why you're literally an idiot: 1. You're comparing a cast single piece magnesium wheel made for street use to a modular 3-piece motorsport wheel intended for track use. 2. You can disagree all you want, but the truth is real motorsport wheels aren't intended for street use. Magnesium is an alloy that is susceptible to corrosion and doesn't do well with heat. It doesn't necessarily bend, but it cracks under pressure. However, it is much lighter than your traditional aluminum alloy wheel. Cracks are common with these wheels and it is often that teams keep multiple centers on hand in the event a face shows signs of fatigue and cracking.. hence the reason for making them front mounted and modular. They're not intended for street driving for many reasons... let me list them off for you: a. Magnesium centers to save weight although weaker than aluminum. b. Thin gauge Aluminum barrels/lips - .23" as opposed to .25", .26", or .28" in some cases that BBS uses. This is done to save weight. c. Less hardware, sometimes in titanium - look at BBS and other companies and you'll notice they use 30+ bolts as hardware on their wheels... mine has 20, to again, try and save weight. If you think that a Motorsport wheel still sounds like a stronger wheel than a cast aluminum or even magnesium one piece wheel, you're a moron. 3. Tracks don't have bridge transitions, potholes, curbs or any ungodly kind of condition you'd find on a public road that would typically slay a wheel like this. 4. My father supports me and my brother in our hobby, and from the sounds of it, he probably knows a little more than you about cars in general. But, he's still years behind my brother and I as far as aftermarket and modification knowledge goes. It seems each year he becomes more and more interested and involved, and I love that we can spend time together enjoying the same hobby. 5. My wheels failed because of defective hardware for one reason or another. The wheels themselves would have been fine if the barrels didn't have stress cracks due to the bolt heads shearing off. Honestly, you should probably stick to backyard poverty Colt builds that end up flipping end to end multiple times... you seem to know quite a bit about that, more than anything else. Good game. Edited April 10, 2014 by Farkas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkas Posted April 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 I don't think he means they're structurally weaker, but when they're built, it's with the intention of being ran on perfectly smooth tracks and not speed bumps, pot holes, etc.. It seems to me that a lot of racing accidents involving this type of wheel does tend to break it, usually the barrel away from the center. Farkas, reading that you don't expect this to be the last time, makes me cringe at the thought of that car getting the fenders or quarters damaged if it does happen again. Well, I don't expect any type of catastrophic failure, but there's a good chance down the road the barrels will develop cracks from being so thin and I'll simply have a flat tire from losing air. It is possible the centers could develop stress cracks, but I'm praying that doesn't happen any time soon. To simply put it, these wheels are very high maintenance and need to be looked after regularly. None of that is Rotiform's problem and they surprised me by going completely out of their way to help, anyway. I don't feel like many companies really do that for a single customer when they deal with thousands of people a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Intadesting how this conversation has gone... As with everything in the automotive culture we all choose to live in, someone elses' tastes are not shared by me. However, I can appreciate what makes them happy. I still think the car looks great. If the wheels are high-maintenance, then that's Andrew's problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
integranator Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 This guy gets it. I am mad just thinking about it. You can have a light wheel that will not come apart before you first freaking oil change. Hell, an OE C5 Vette had magnesium wheels!! :dumb: As far as a track wheel being "weaker" that a street wheel, I 100% disagree with you, and I think anyone that has been on track would. That would be suggesting that slowly street driving your stanced’ car is harder on the wheel than a road race. Your shit came apart on a smooth, flat road. How would it hold up to the Chicane at Mid-Ohio? Or the Kink at speed? I understand your father has supported you and your brother in your endeavors with cars. Does he have a motorsport background? Ask him if a track wheel is weaker than an OE counterpart. Just think about what you’re implying here. +1million. I thought the whole argument for "real" wheels vs. "rota/copies" was durability. So why spend the money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Guys it's not how you race your car, it's how you stand by your car. Better learn dat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkas Posted April 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Haha, I think it's more that the fakes copy real wheels and take business from them. While I get that point, there's something to be said about owning wheels that literally nobody else has available to them. Like I said, high maintenance wheels not intended for street abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudiOn19s Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 So much hate in this thread. We all enjoy our toys differently but in the end no matter that use they bring us the same pleasure and pride. It's a nice day out boys, get the toys out of the garage and enjoy them however you wish today...I know I did this morning and I'm sure my neighbors probably didn't enjoy my exhaust as much as I did at 5:30 this morning but it sure put a smile on my face. Happy motoring. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverMaker Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Farkas... got pulled over in Gahanna the other day. Not hassled about tint or no front plate. Thought of you. <3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 3. Tracks don't have bridge transitions, potholes, curbs or any ungodly kind of condition you'd find on a public road that would typically slay a wheel like this. I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I've heard this "track wheels are actually weaker" thing on the internet for years, and I'm just not buying it. In the interest of getting to the truth, I can say that anyone's who's ever been to Nelson Ledges can debunk this "tracks are glass smooth" myth. Curbing at the track can be very aggressive, and in certain places if you miss an apex by a few inches you can slam a wheel into the edge of a concrete curb edge. That's all assuming you even stay on the track, which isn't a guarantee. Here's what Tire Rack says: All wheels flex as they are driven through a corner. In normal street driving the amount of flex is minimal. However since today's DOT legal competition tires almost match the performance of yesterday's racing tires, every corner that is taken at the limit on the track causes significantly more flex. It's the combination of the extra tire grip and the resulting extra flex that fatigues wheels faster when used on the track. And don't forget that spins, running over the track edge curbs and unintentional trips through the run off areas add their own unique extra stresses. During track use, wheels will often reach temperatures never encountered on the street as they help dissipate the brake heat. This constant cycling between the ambient temperature and the extremes encountered on the track can increase the fatigue rate of alloy wheels. In normal street driving wheels are typically removed from the vehicle only when the tires are being rotated (typically every 5,000 miles) or replaced (typically every 25,000 to 40,000 miles). But when used on the track wheels are typically removed from the vehicle at the start and finish of each day, as well as, anytime the vehicle's brakes or suspension are being serviced. Additionally DOT legal competition tires wear out and are replaced much more frequently than normal street tires. These extra tire mountings and vehicle installations can increase wheel fatigue as they wear out the wheel's lug seats and the vehicle's lug nuts/studs or lug bolts/hubs. The life of a track wheel is pretty tough, and anyone going racing is spending a shitload of money to be there. Yeah, lightweight is good, but nobody wants a wheel that's running at the ragged edge of its design spec, because one missed apex would amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars down the drain, and possibly a trip to the ER/morgue. To finish first, you must first finish and all that. And not that it's any of my business, but does Rotiform even have a track pedigree? I did a GIS and I can only find a couple of drift cars that run them. It seems to be mostly the stance crowd. Volk, BBS, OZ, all of these companies have a wide range of rugged, pedestrian-looking race wheels, available in center-lock (which Rotiform doesn't seem to advertise, if they even have them available.). Their race wheels are designed for "Suzuka" and the "Mulsanne straight," but they make no mention of Buttonwillow or Laguna Seca, which would make a lot more sense. It sounds like their customer service is pretty solid, but color me skeptical about the quality of their product. Anyway, it's a beautiful car and I wish you the best. Stay safe out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkas Posted April 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I've heard this "track wheels are actually weaker" thing on the internet for years, and I'm just not buying it. In the interest of getting to the truth, I can say that anyone's who's ever been to Nelson Ledges can debunk this "tracks are glass smooth" myth. Curbing at the track can be very aggressive, and in certain places if you miss an apex by a few inches you can slam a wheel into the edge of a concrete curb edge. That's all assuming you even stay on the track, which isn't a guarantee. Here's what Tire Rack says: The life of a track wheel is pretty tough, and anyone going racing is spending a shitload of money to be there. Yeah, lightweight is good, but nobody wants a wheel that's running at the ragged edge of its design spec, because one missed apex would amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars down the drain, and possibly a trip to the ER/morgue. To finish first, you must first finish and all that. And not that it's any of my business, but does Rotiform even have a track pedigree? I did a GIS and I can only find a couple of drift cars that run them. It seems to be mostly the stance crowd. Volk, BBS, OZ, all of these companies have a wide range of rugged, pedestrian-looking race wheels, available in center-lock (which Rotiform doesn't seem to advertise, if they even have them available.). Their race wheels are designed for "Suzuka" and the "Mulsanne straight," but they make no mention of Buttonwillow or Laguna Seca, which would make a lot more sense. It sounds like their customer service is pretty solid, but color me skeptical about the quality of their product. Anyway, it's a beautiful car and I wish you the best. Stay safe out there. Nelson Ledges is for sure a nightmare on cars... It's hard on tires, hard on wheels and hard on the cars because of all the different surface textures, road surfaces and curbs. So I don't disagree with you about Ledges. But, I'm speaking in general, the track surfaces are going to be MUCH better taken care of than a public roadway 9 times out of 10. A track wheel is put through a TON of abuse like you're saying, and they're still pretty strong all things considered. But, when they design these wheels, they do it to keep the weight to a minimum while trying to avoid compromising strength. You can't have a strong wheel without added weight, and you can't have a light wheel without giving up strength. It's one or the other and when designing a track wheel, you gotta find a medium. To answer your question about Rotiform, I really can't say as I'm personally not an advocate of their brand. However, that's beside the point, I didn't buy a Rotiform wheel. I bought genuine BBS Motorsport E26 Centers, Barrels and etc. through Rotiform since none of those items can just be sourced by the average joe off the street. Motorsport parts are sold exclusively and they're not intended for street use, and BBS will tell you this. Only part Rotiform had in my transaction was sourcing parts and assembly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berto Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 I like turtles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHIEF Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Guys it's not how you race your car' date=' it's how you stance by your car. Better learn dat[/quote'] Fixed it for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltboostin Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 I don't think he means they're structurally weaker, but when they're built, it's with the intention of being ran on perfectly smooth tracks and not speed bumps, pot holes, etc.. It seems to me that a lot of racing accidents involving this type of wheel does tend to break it, usually the barrel away from the center. See below. Also do you really think a “stanced’” car driver is even going to attempt a a speed bump at ANY speed? How would it hold up to the Chicane at Mid-Ohio? Or the Kink at speed? If you are in traffic or taking the course on a aggressive line you will hit a rumble strip at speed here (and Mid Ohio has pretty mild rumble strips compared to some other tracks I have seen) . If this uber race wheel cant that that- why would you be OK with it failing on a smooth, flat stretch of highway?? El oh El Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltboostin Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Let me tell you why you're literally an idiot: 1. You're comparing a cast single piece magnesium wheel made for street use to a modular 3-piece motorsport wheel intended for track use. 2. You can disagree all you want, but the truth is real motorsport wheels aren't intended for street use. Magnesium is an alloy that is susceptible to corrosion and doesn't do well with heat. It doesn't necessarily bend, but it cracks under pressure. However, it is much lighter than your traditional aluminum alloy wheel. Cracks are common with these wheels and it is often that teams keep multiple centers on hand in the event a face shows signs of fatigue and cracking.. hence the reason for making them front mounted and modular. They're not intended for street driving for many reasons... let me list them off for you: a. Magnesium centers to save weight although weaker than aluminum. b. Thin gauge Aluminum barrels/lips - .23" as opposed to .25", .26", or .28" in some cases that BBS uses. This is done to save weight. c. Less hardware, sometimes in titanium - look at BBS and other companies and you'll notice they use 30+ bolts as hardware on their wheels... mine has 20, to again, try and save weight. If you think that a Motorsport wheel still sounds like a stronger wheel than a cast aluminum or even magnesium one piece wheel, you're a moron. 3. Tracks don't have bridge transitions, potholes, curbs or any ungodly kind of condition you'd find on a public road that would typically slay a wheel like this. 4. My father supports me and my brother in our hobby, and from the sounds of it, he probably knows a little more than you about cars in general. But, he's still years behind my brother and I as far as aftermarket and modification knowledge goes. 5. My wheels failed because of defective hardware for one reason or another. The wheels themselves would have been fine if the barrels didn't have stress cracks due to the bolt heads shearing off. Honestly, you should probably stick to backyard poverty Colt builds that end up flipping end to end multiple times... you seem to know quite a bit about that, more than anything else. Good game. Although not a rocket scientist, I am well aware that a thicker, one piece wheel of any alloy will be in most cases stronger than a thinner or multi piece counterpart. I was just dispelling this myth that magnesium +because race ca wheel = you million dollar wheel's failure. The fact hat you are still trying to fly the flag that a show car driven at show car speeds on the street is harder on a wheel than an race car in a cock sucking race environment is absolutely ridiculous. So ridiculous in fact that there is no point in arguing about it. The only thing I will take away from this is that there is and will always be young kids out there that have more than they necessarily need, or deserve with the thanks of parents that have maybe over-supported their endeavors in this hobby. An unfortunate byproduct of this is a delusion of ability or knowledge that typically comes with years in actual motorsport. Something that trolling the net, or quoting something you read on uber voretex does not measure up to. When you face this, even the most accomplished racer would not win this E-battle. Some of these kids are just a flash in the pan. Showing up one day in a new, modded GT2, and gone the next. Some of these kids actually take what opportunities their parents have afforded them to actually become immersed in motorsport. Starting a business or actually engaging in a real race series. Learning from actual experience or the knowledge passed down from people that have been in the game a long, long time. Some wear skinny jeans and buy the most expensive supposedly unusable parts for their car and complain when they fail. True motorsports experts after a few trips to waterfest and the local stance’d meet. Rinse and repeat. In the end-I am glad you were not hurt when your wheel failed- and glad you figured out the issue. If you are happy with what you have, that’s all that matters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 JP, please opine more on Andrew's poor choice of wheels. I think you're starting to win him over. http://www.ducati.ms/forums/attachments/superbikes/52379d1249397484-superbike-wheels-2009-848-gayrims.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkas Posted April 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 JP, please opine more on Andrew's poor choice of wheels. I think you're starting to win him over. http://www.ducati.ms/forums/attachments/superbikes/52379d1249397484-superbike-wheels-2009-848-gayrims.jpg Those will certainly be the next wheel I get. Likely better than any other wheel I've ever had. JP is only proving how little he knows about me or my family, which isn't such a big deal because I don't ask for anyone to understand it. To assume my knowledge comes from no hands on experience and no actual seat time is laughable, but I'll continue to let him feel that way if it helps him sleep at night... I certainly don't have any trouble. Anyhow, I'm hoping to see everyone Saturday morning at CnC. :thumbup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 I'm curious now, what is your Motorsport seat time, and what is your racing history? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 I'm curious now' date=' what is your Motorsport seat time, and what is your racing history?[/quote'] I think he holds title's in several "most stanced" competitions as well as most broken oil pans from dragging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltboostin Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 http://www.ducati.ms/forums/attachments/superbikes/52379d1249397484-superbike-wheels-2009-848-gayrims.jpg Ballin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaFark Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 After reading this thread I have to sit back and laugh..... There is so much ball busting and chest beating in here that I am truly amazed.... Andy's car is not and is NOT set up to be a race car nor is it set up for the track. It has however been set up for stance and social cruising and enjoyment. If Andy were to track or race the car, he would have most certainly set the car up differently. Different wheels and suspension mods would then be a must. That is not what the intent of this car is... It is what makes a car person a car person..... Whatever has been posted in this thread, I believe the general impression is that the car is a head turner and most like it...... NOW....... The remarks that my boys have their cars due to the fact that I support them..... Well yes I do support them in their desire to have an awesome car and have select mods, but this by no means says that I bankroll all their activities..... That is not the case. They have car loans just like everyone else and they make monthly payments just like everyone else. There is no free ride in that respect. What both my boys have, they have earned and paid by themselves. I stand behind them on most purchases but there have been some that I did not support. I am a car guy and I have probably passed on my excitement to my sons as they were growing up. At this point in time I am very proud of both of them. They have had many experiences and have acquired some pretty fantastic cars. It is their interest and desires that drive them on and on and on to new and exciting purchases....Don't fault them for that! And don't fault me for being right next to them supporting what they want to do..... It's what a PapaFark Does! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 After reading this thread I have to sit back and laugh..... There is so much ball busting and chest beating in here that I am truly amazed.... Andy's car is not and is NOT set up to be a race car nor is it set up for the track. It has however been set up for stance and social cruising and enjoyment. If Andy were to track or race the car, he would have most certainly set the car up differently. Different wheels and suspension mods would then be a must. That is not what the intent of this car is... It is what makes a car person a car person..... Whatever has been posted in this thread, I believe the general impression is that the car is a head turner and most like it...... NOW....... The remarks that my boys have their cars due to the fact that I support them..... Well yes I do support them in their desire to have an awesome car and have select mods, but this by no means says that I bankroll all their activities..... That is not the case. They have car loans just like everyone else and they make monthly payments just like everyone else. There is no free ride in that respect. What both my boys have, they have earned and paid by themselves. I stand behind them on most purchases but there have been some that I did not support. I am a car guy and I have probably passed on my excitement to my sons as they were growing up. At this point in time I am very proud of both of them. They have had many experiences and have acquired some pretty fantastic cars. It is their interest and desires that drive them on and on and on to new and exciting purchases....Don't fault them for that! And don't fault me for being right next to them supporting what they want to do..... It's what a PapaFark Does! And on that note and after reading the rest of this shit show, how about we just get this back on track eh? If you think any of Mr. Farkas's decisions are questionable and you would like to make some pointed attacks, take it to the Kitchen, PM's, Facebook, Twitter, Myspace, or a pod cast... I'm not a "stance" or trendy type guy, but I do think this car is pretty sharp and it makes the owner happy. Thanks and have a bitchin day <3 wagner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 If Andy were to track or race the car, he would have most certainly set the car up differently. Different wheels ... would then be a must. http://focusfury.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/fry-not-sure-if-trolling_191.jpg?w=538 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 I'm in the camp that track wheels take more abuse than street wheels. However, it should be noted that the BBS Motorsport wheels are not designed for a weekend track guy or club racer. They're designed for factory high dollar race teams where every pound counts and big money is spent. The wheels on those teams are more of a wear item so they'll give up some durability for the lightness. Andrew sounds like he knew this going in so that's why he's not raging at the failure. He handled it and moved on. Good for him. I bought Rotiform wheels for my wife's TL and have enjoyed them so far. Other than taking a long time to get them they were a good company to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POS VETT Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 Andy - if you still had the broken bolts, would you bring some to CC&C so I can have a look at them? I'm merely curious about the failure mode. What was the approximate ambient temperature when they failed ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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