Reality Check for CR and myself.

[Orion]

I dont hate either.

 

Shouldn't you, though? I don't mean for that to be a leading question, I'm honestly just curious. SHOULD we not ALL hate poverty?

 

The guy who works his ass off to avoid being poor probably hates poverty. The broke college student who is wondering if his expensive degree is going to help him earn a living probably hates it too. I, in my condo with my secure, cushy job, my two dogs and my truck, I hate poverty. My wealthy uncle and his family, they all hate poverty.

 

Poverty is a state, not a person. It is a situation, and there are many ways to find yourself in it. What I am curious is, how many of you/us have been led to believe that in order to hate poverty, or to struggle against it, we have to hate the poor as well.

[jeffro]

I tried to watch the video but cannot do so with sound at the moment. Although based off what I am seeing, I still do not think digging in the pockets of wealthy is the fix.

 

Imagine all the money in America is collected and redistributed evenly to every person, so the graph is a flat line.

 

Now a question: how do you think that wealth distribution graph would look like 10 years later? 20 years?

 

Same likely. The wealthy/smart will invest their money to make more, while the poor/less smart will spend it on TVs, xboxs, and other useless shit.

[gillbot]

My theory on why the middle class is getting "poorer" is outsourcing. Americans are losing jobs to people in Mexico, China, Asia, ect. It's like the CEO of Emerson, David Farr said "I will not hire another person in america". That's the current issue I see with the country.

 

Americans are losing jobs to outsourcing because many today expect to be paid a wage not commensurate with their willingness to work. I don't care if you have 94856948564 college degrees, you don't "deserve" a position as CEO as soon as you graduate.

 

As a foreigner that lives here now,I have to say most poor people in America are not really poor,shoeless kids in Turkey Istanbul are poor.

 

As for the top 5-10 percentile having everything does that not motivate you? to do better??

 

I think they still pay you well in America for a unique idea product or service,I,m pretty happy to live here where I can participate and get paid If I get of my duff and make it happen…..off soapbox now.

 

THIS ^

[Drewhop]

This is a popular topic. And not to disclose incomes. I am way down on that scale and still live perfectly fine within my means. My only debt is (half of value of house) and some student loans. Mistakes were made or I would not have those.

90% of americans problems are complete lack of financial responsibility.

 

I deal with it on a daily basis. I sell cars and make money of these leaches on the system. I interact with them on a daily basis and I see there mistakes.

 

Example 1: 2 adults with 2 kids renting apartment. Working low wage job. Makes enough money to pay bills but nothing more. Something happens, usually kid number 3 on way. Has to take 7 weeks off work or whatever it is they can legally get away with. Has no income for 7 weeks. Gets behind on bills. I then repo the car. Look in side full of trash. (just the other day I cleaned 72 Large tim hortons cups out of a car.) I don't know what the current price is but lets just say 2 bucks. Prolly 100 bags of taco bell. Average visit prolly 5 bucks. 30 empty packs of cigarettes another 5 bucks each. I mean 600-700 bucks a month would pay for some pretty decent health care. (I know for a fact these people receive food stamps and other government aid cause all there kids are under 5)

 

Your hand outs for these low end are so these people can continue to live like this.

I repo about 3 out of every 10 cars I sell. So just to keep a nice round number. 30%. I have several hundred customers. Just about every car I repo is the same way. Full of trash and wasted money on pure junk.

 

I don't feel sorry for this people and some would say I am severely jaded. But I am interacting with them on a daily basis. These people make horrible decisions and we pay for it.

[Orion]

I also am learning that CR is full of idealists. And not just socialist ones. Ben is the obvious one, but Jones was a surprise. Any of you who believe that "working hard, and doing the right/smart thing" is going to elevate you to that upper echelon of income are just as, if not more than, idealistic than Ben.

 

Neither is a bad thing, so don't hear me hating, I'm just trying to elevate the awareness level of the thread.

[mrs.cos]

Shouldn't you, though? I don't mean for that to be a leading question, I'm honestly just curious. SHOULD we not ALL hate poverty?

 

i understand your point, but poverty will always be, just the nature of the beast, but i believe you can work your way out of poverty. Its not easy, ive been there but it can be done.

 

My question is this.. Is there anyone on here who has actually been poor? Like had to decide between food and bills? My dad did, i grew up that way, but he did it to give us a better life (he had hoped)

 

We grew up in beavercreek which is a well to do suburb of dayton (like dublin, or westerville)

 

During summer months he would slack off paying ht electric so he could save up to get us new clothes for the school year, as kids we didn't know any better and just thought "camping outside" was a fun thing during the summer, or on fall nights we would all sleep in the family room where the fireplace was with the fire on to keep us all warm. It was never out for more than a day or two, just long enough to get his next paycheck, but he did it so he could afford to have us in a "poorer" part of beavercreek so we could go to good schools,We were the poor kids, i got teased about it because my dad had old rusted cars in the driveway and it was obvious my clothes came from goodwill or kmart.

 

He rented that house for 19 years.

 

It wasn't until my sister and i both graduated that he was able to start saving up enough to actually buy the house from the owner. He also now works for GM and has a much better life for himself than he did while we were growing up.

When i was 16, i got a job, and started paying the electricity bill to help out, i did this WHILE i went to school, and was in marching band and track, as well as other extra curricular. I busted my ass, because thats what my dad taught me to do.

 

In the words of an illustrious man who we all miss.

 

"DO WORK, SON"

 

Mike Rowe is among my heros, and he has worked hard to remind us all that the jobs are there, they might suck, but they are there.

 

 

[TTQ B4U]

As a foreigner that lives here now,I have to say most poor people in America are not really poor,shoeless kids in Turkey Istanbul are poor.

 

Thank you! I just took a job application from a neighbor of ours who moved here with his wife and two kids from Jordon several years ago. Hard working guy with a military background, sense of discipline and while he's never made more than $25k/yr., he just completed a technical degree in the evenings and is applying for a $50k yr job at my lab. His wife manages a doctors office and together they are living the American Dream.

 

The cool story behind him is he came here with about $10k in USD and worked his ass off. Literally lost 30lbs in the first year working odd jobs and street crew labor to "make it" and do well for his family.

 

Bought a house, paid off their first car, a used Malibu just this past summer and the rest is yet to be made history. I'm very happy for him.

 

In the end, the interesting perspective he brought me is that yes, here, our poor or down and out are light years above where he comes from.

 

What he did with two kids and wife in tow is to me as brave as being in the Jordanian Military. Dude has stones and work ethic.

[Orion]

I love Mike, I am a subscriber to his site. The next time he is anywhere around here lecturing, I WILL go see him.

 

You father sounds like he was a decent, responsible man, and I applaud him for his efforts. If I may, allow me to add a hypothetical wrinkle to your childhood. Let's say that your hardworking, loving father was tragically killed in an auto accident when you were young. Did he have a nice life insurance policy? Would your mother have been able to find a job that paid enough to make up the difference in income? How would things have been different?

 

I know that tossing around “what if’s” can get us going down a rat hole, I only mean to suggest that hard work and dedication would have been for naught and you would have found yourself thrown down into poverty through no fault of you own, or anyone’s, maybe.

Drew’s use of the phrase “these people” drives that point home even more bluntly. Some of the folks in this situation are there as a result of their own doing, but not all, and we as humans should be very careful painting with such a broad brush when we speak of the poor. One of “those people” could easily have been you.

The bigger issue is this; In what way is society slanted to KEEP “those people” down there?

[cybe]

tax the church.

[Aaron]

tax the church.

 

BLASPHEMY

[mrs.cos]

I love Mike, I am a subscriber to his site. The next time he is anywhere around here lecturing, I WILL go see him.

 

You father sounds like he was a decent, responsible man, and I applaud him for his efforts. If I may, allow me to add a hypothetical wrinkle to your childhood. Let's say that your hardworking, loving father was tragically killed in an auto accident when you were young. Did he have a nice life insurance policy? Would your mother have been able to find a job that paid enough to make up the difference in income? How would things have been different?

 

I know that tossing around “what if’s” can get us going down a rat hole, I only mean to suggest that hard work and dedication would have been for naught and you would have found yourself thrown down into poverty through no fault of you own, or anyone’s, maybe.

Drew’s use of the phrase “these people” drives that point home even more bluntly. Some of the folks in this situation are there as a result of their own doing, but not all, and we as humans should be very careful painting with such a broad brush when we speak of the poor. One of “those people” could easily have been you.

The bigger issue is this; In what way is society slanted to KEEP “those people” down there?

My mother wasnt in the picture. She left when i was 4.

No he didnt have an insurance policy, but we have a big family and they would have taken over if something happened to my father.

[Drewhop]

I love Mike, I am a subscriber to his site. The next time he is anywhere around here lecturing, I WILL go see him.

 

You father sounds like he was a decent, responsible man, and I applaud him for his efforts. If I may, allow me to add a hypothetical wrinkle to your childhood. Let's say that your hardworking, loving father was tragically killed in an auto accident when you were young. Did he have a nice life insurance policy? Would your mother have been able to find a job that paid enough to make up the difference in income? How would things have been different?

 

I know that tossing around “what if’s” can get us going down a rat hole, I only mean to suggest that hard work and dedication would have been for naught and you would have found yourself thrown down into poverty through no fault of you own, or anyone’s, maybe.

Drew’s use of the phrase “these people” drives that point home even more bluntly. Some of the folks in this situation are there as a result of their own doing, but not all, and we as humans should be very careful painting with such a broad brush when we speak of the poor. One of “those people” could easily have been you.

The bigger issue is this; In what way is society slanted to KEEP “those people” down there?

 

To add another small tidbit. The people that have big honest "shtf" situations usually come and talk to me. They don't hide. They are honest and they own up to it. I work with these people. I work with them on payments. Or get them into a more affordable car. Or even better if situation is major I have taken car back and not held money over there head. Or if a small amount owed let them pay what they could until it was paid off or wrote the number off and gave them the title.

My problem is with "those people" who think I owe them something. They feel a sense of entitlement. They repeat the same mistakes over and over. After they have done it here they go down the street and do it to someone else. Skip ahead 3-5 years and they are back on my lot trying to do the same thing.

 

So I don't think that society is keeping those people down. I think those people have the mindset that they are being kept down and wont change.

[Orion]

My mother wasnt in the picture. She left when i was 4.

No he didnt have an insurance policy, but we have a big family and they would have taken over if something happened to my father.

 

I understand. Sorry to dredge up bad memories, and I hope the point I was trying to make is not lost in my offensiveness.

 

A family that will step in is another luxury that some folks just don't have, and it sucks.

 

Drew, In the same way as with Damreds, it was not my intent to call you out and offend, I know you to be a good dude from our other conversations. It's a MINDSET. We lump folks together, paint them with the big red pen, and then write them off in our minds as having failed the societal test for "worthiness". I am as guilty as anyone here. But we need, as individuals, to fight that way of thinking, because it's THAT WAY OF THINKING that drives the programs designed to help folks in this situation, AND our desire NOT to associate with them.

[mrs.cos]

I understand. Sorry to dredge up bad memories, and I hope the point I was trying to make is not lost in my offensiveness.

 

A family that will step in is another luxury that some folks just don't have, and it sucks.

 

Drew, In the same way as with Damreds, it was not my intent to call you out and offend, I know you to be a good dude from our other conversations. It's a MINDSET. We lump folks together, paint them with the big red pen, and then write them off in our minds as having failed the societal test for "worthiness". I am as guilty as anyone here. But we need, as individuals, to fight that way of thinking, because it's THAT WAY OF THINKING that drives the programs designed to help folks in this situation, AND our desire NOT to associate with them.

 

I brought it all up. I am not ashamed of my life. She made her choices when she decided motherhood was too hard.

And your right not all have that luxury of a family, but my family isnt rich either, they are all middle/lower class family too. My point in everything im saying is working hard, working often, and perseverance will make life better.

In all honesty, i think my dad could have done more, I think he could have gone to night school, while my grandparents watched me, or tried to at least move up from his spot in life. So while he worked hard at his job every day, he was content in that role too, or he would have made choices to move above and beyond the levels he was at.

I dont frown upon him for it, His kids were/are his world and he watned to be with us as much as he could. I couldnt have asked for a better parent

[Drewhop]

No offense taken at all. I have spent most of my life dealing with low income peeps. At some point in past 14 years of doing what I do I became numb to it. I know there are good people left out there. Rich or poor I just don't see them anymore lol. I have reach a point were it is hard for me to care for anyone outside my immediate friend and family circle. (which is kinda the point you are making)

[Green Bastard]

Americans are losing jobs to outsourcing because many today expect to be paid a wage not commensurate with their willingness to work. I don't care if you have 94856948564 college degrees, you don't "deserve" a position as CEO as soon as you graduate.

 

I agree with what you said, people feel entitled when they shouldn't. I was referring more towards manufacturing. Where I work the average wage for the hourly people is around $20 an hour. They have been sending some of these jobs towards mexico the past few years where the hourly associates there make ~$1.50 an hour. It's all about the bottom line for ceo's and not the people making them the money. I feel lucky to have my job still, yet I don't know how long it will be before they close the doors here and move on. That's a big part of what I think is wrong with the economy.

[CRed05]

As a foreigner that lives here now,I have to say most poor people in America are not really poor,shoeless kids in Turkey Istanbul are poor.

 

+1

 

I grew up about 20 mins away from Soweto. Makes the poorest areas in the US look like the fucking hamptons

 

http://blog.smu.edu/studentadventures/files/2007/08/22/SowetoII.jpg

 

 

Do I see a WRX parked infront of 53 Pisstain rd?

 

tax the church.

 

I support this

[Mojoe]

There are A LOT of areas being covered in this thread. And the attacks toward others "perception" are almost pointless.

 

What I'm surprised by is how we Americans view poor, poverty, middle class, rich, and success. Carl hit on it a bit. And I get it, that we have some very impoverished areas of this country. But, go to a country where most people live bare foot, hungry, little to no electric power and just over all filthy conditions.

America, we have our issues. We are not poor. We are, to some extent lazy. The people who have ruined their life and live in "poverty", that's a choice. MOVE. Leave the area that offers nothing. The means to start fresh in a new area are all around you. As stated, CR is mostly ok and though there are people on here who struggle, if you have internet, you aren't that bad off.

I think we lose track of a few important things talking about this stuff. Are you doing what you like? If you are, then that's where you are and the life you live. That's your place in the food chain. If you aren't doing what you like, what are you doing the change that? Again, that's where you are in the food chain.

Finally, ARE YOU HAPPY? What would it take for you to be happy? Get to where you are happy. Have the drive to create a good life for yourself and loved ones. Help others if you can, but know it's not up to you to support everyone.

 

If there is someone thinking I can't relate tofinancial hardship. I grew up in a shitty trailer park in Vermont. My first rule I made growing up was GTFO of a trailer park and never go back to that living style. So far, I'm winning.

[Orion]

tax the church.

 

Or offer them incentives to do more in the community.

 

Also, add Mojoe to the list of idealists in the thread.

[gillbot]

I also am learning that CR is full of idealists. And not just socialist ones. Ben is the obvious one, but Jones was a surprise. Any of you who believe that "working hard, and doing the right/smart thing" is going to elevate you to that upper echelon of income are just as, if not more than, idealistic than Ben.

 

Neither is a bad thing, so don't hear me hating, I'm just trying to elevate the awareness level of the thread.

The difference there is, some people want to EARN their living while others want to be HANDED their living. I can respect the earners.

I agree with what you said, people feel entitled when they shouldn't. I was referring more towards manufacturing. Where I work the average wage for the hourly people is around $20 an hour. They have been sending some of these jobs towards mexico the past few years where the hourly associates there make ~$1.50 an hour. It's all about the bottom line for ceo's and not the people making them the money. I feel lucky to have my job still, yet I don't know how long it will be before they close the doors here and move on. That's a big part of what I think is wrong with the economy.

It is a two sided coin, but sometimes the people demanding higher wages force the hand of those who's job it is to lower costs. If I was told I had to take a pay cut or my job could be outsourced, I'd have to consider the paycut. Unfortunately many would just claim it was the man trying to earn more and let the job go to Mexico.

[Mojoe]

Also, add Mojoe to the list of idealists in the thread.

 

Not sure if that was meant to be a bad thing or not. But, I'll take it as a compliment. I'd say this discribes me pretty well.

 

Description[edit]

 

Idealists are abstract in speech and cooperative in pursuing their goals. Their greatest strength is diplomatic integration. Their best developed intelligence role is either mentoring (Counselors and Teachers) or advocacy (Healers and Champions).

 

As the identity-seeking temperament, Idealists long for meaningful communication and relationships. They search for profound truths hidden beneath the surface, often expressing themselves in metaphor. Focused on the future, they are enthusiastic about possibilities, and they continually strive for self-renewal.

 

Interests: Idealists tend to study the humanities. They seek careers facilitating the personal growth of others, whether through education, counseling, or other pursuits that promote the happiness and fulfillment of individuals and society.

 

Orientation: The lives of Idealists are guided by their devotion to their personal ethics.[1] They are altruistic, taking satisfaction in the well-being of others. They believe in the basic goodness of the world and of the people in it. They take a holistic view toward suffering and misfortune, regarding them as part of a larger, unknowable truth, a mystical cause-and-effect. With an eye toward the future, they view life as a journey toward a deeper spiritual knowledge.

 

Self-image: The Idealists' self-esteem is rooted in empathetic action; their self-respect in their benevolence; and their self-confidence in their personal authenticity.

 

Values: The emotions of Idealists "are both easily aroused and quickly discharged."[2] Their general demeanor is enthusiastic. They trust their intuition and yearn for romance. They seek deeper self-knowledge and want to be understood for who they are behind the social roles they are forced to play. They aspire to wisdom that transcends ego and the bounds of the material world.

 

Social roles: Idealists seek mutuality in their personal relationships. Romantically, they want a soulmate with whom they can share a deep spiritual connection. As parents, they encourage their children to form harmonious relationships and engage in imaginative play. In their professional and social lives, Idealists strive to be catalysts of positive change.

[SpaceGhost]

I love Mike, I am a subscriber to his site. The next time he is anywhere around here lecturing, I WILL go see him.

 

You father sounds like he was a decent, responsible man, and I applaud him for his efforts. If I may, allow me to add a hypothetical wrinkle to your childhood. Let's say that your hardworking, loving father was tragically killed in an auto accident when you were young. Did he have a nice life insurance policy? Would your mother have been able to find a job that paid enough to make up the difference in income? How would things have been different?

 

I know that tossing around “what if’s” can get us going down a rat hole, I only mean to suggest that hard work and dedication would have been for naught and you would have found yourself thrown down into poverty through no fault of you own, or anyone’s, maybe.

Drew’s use of the phrase “these people” drives that point home even more bluntly. Some of the folks in this situation are there as a result of their own doing, but not all, and we as humans should be very careful painting with such a broad brush when we speak of the poor. One of “those people” could easily have been you.

The bigger issue is this; In what way is society slanted to KEEP “those people” down there?

 

This is the kind of discussion I am looking for. Thank you.

[Orion]

Not sure if that was meant to be a bad thing or not. But, I'll take it as a compliment. I'd say this describes me pretty well.

 

Not a bad thing at all, but it does put you in the same boat as Benjamin, so be careful throwing stones at him for what he believes. :-)

 

 

This is the kind of discussion I am looking for. Thank you.

 

I am hoping that more folks respond to my last question, because that is really at the heart of the matter. Sadly, CR's appetite for discussion like this wanes quickly after the rhetoric is all expended. That happened right away in this thread.

[zeitgeist57]

This is the kind of discussion I am looking for. Thank you.

 

Care to contribute to the conversation you started?

 

To DJ's question: I think villifying the rich doesn't benefit anyone that isn't in the 1%. Two negatives (being rich is bad, and being poor is bad) will never solve the problem. Society's perception (acceptance) of poverty doesn't help either.

 

What do I have to do AFTER I recognize that poverty could have been my own life situation? Wallow in an enlightened sense of self-pity? make sure I post a CV of civic/religious/charitable duties I've performed to validate my opinions??? I think it's extremely hypocritical viewpoint to "judge" those that are judging...CLIFFS: You're doing it yourself!

 

Recognize this thread is an academic circle-jerk thinly disguised as a social review and "reality check".

Edited October 30, 2013 by zeitgeist57
Had to take out "this is my last post..."

[Rustlestiltskin]