Political Thread Of Fail And AIDS (Geeto ahead!)

[Mallard]

Also, not only is this email completely damning to Trump Jr., and more, but IMHO this development will completely kill the Trumpcare bill. Political support for Trump within his own party was already starting to wane over the 4th (with several speaking out negatively about the bill), and now even fewer will want to be associated with his agenda.

 

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[SpaceGhost]

Also, not only is this email completely damning to Trump Jr., and more, but IMHO this development will completely kill the Trumpcare bill. Political support for Trump within his own party was already starting to wane over the 4th (with several speaking out negatively about the bill), and now even fewer will want to be associated with his agenda.

 

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Let's hope so, fingers crossed!

[wagner]

**baseball announcer voice** Things aren't looking good for Trump, he appears tired on the mound and Mike Pence appears to be warming up in the bullpen....

[zeitgeist57]

 

Seriously...if John Oliver and his staff are wrong, how do they package it so deceptively alluring to watch and believe?

[Geeto67]

Joe Scarborough making a lot of sense:

 

 

The GOP isn't going to do anything about Trump. They need to pay a price for their opportunism in the form of their supporters walking away from the party and becoming independents. Unfortunately there are too many people who think politics are a team sport and they need to stick with their team.

 

Fuck "Mayonnaise" Mike Pence. Being an evangical bigot who knows how to play the politics game doesn't make you better than what we have in trump.

[BStowers023]

I really do hope Trumpcare doesn't get passed. I hope there is an alternative, something similar to Randcare would be nice

[Geeto67]

I really do hope Trumpcare doesn't get passed. I hope there is an alternative, something similar to Randcare would be nice

 

how about romneycare? oh wait.....

 

 

 

Randcare is garbage and you know it.

 

[BStowers023]

What is garbage about Randcare?

 

You know what is garbage? Obamacare and everybody that's not getting it for free knows it.

Edited July 12, 2017 by BStowers023

[zeitgeist57]

You know what is garbage? Obamacare and everybody that's getting it for free knows it.

 

No one is going to deny Obamacare is garbage. The only thing supporters tout is the "millions of people now covered through health insurance", despite sweeping the huge impact to insurance/medical providers from a profitability and servicing standpoint.

 

However, for Trump to imply that his team had a better plan through Repeal and Replace was a boldfaced lie.

[Geeto67]

No one is going to deny Obamacare is garbage. The only thing supporters tout is the "millions of people now covered through health insurance", despite sweeping the huge impact to insurance/medical providers from a profitability and servicing standpoint.

 

 

eh......

 

Obamacare is problematic, but it's still better than RandCare, what was in place before, ANY plan the GOP has proposed since, and basically anything else going right now. To call it "garbage" is to call all American Healthcare garbage.

 

The expanded coverage isn't the only thing that supporters tout. It may be the only thing you are hearing because it is the loudest issue with any replacement, but....

 

- The ACA put in other consumer protections such as protection for rate hikes from contracting an "expensive illness", protection from being dropped due to any clerical error in the forms, a speedier appeals process. Insurance companies can no longer put dollar limits on essential care items.

 

- tax credits for small businesses

 

- your children can stay under your coverage until 26. Prior to this it was 19 years old but could be extended to 23 if the child was enrolled in college. This addresses a large portion of young adults who don't typically have the types of jobs that include health coverage (i.e. entry level) and can't afford traditional private health insurance. In terms of people you want paying into the system these are ideal because young people rarely get sick and therefore pay in more than they use. Before they were just outside the system not contributing.

 

- It slowed health care spending. Nobody talks about the cost curbing measures in the ACA but they have slowed the spending increase to the smallest amount since 1960.

 

everyone is talking about the coverage and the loss of coverage because that is a house burning down kind of issue, but it is simply not true that supporter's only tout one benefit - it is just that the other benefits are less controversial and therefore not talked about as much. Obamacare's biggest problem is cost, it is a very expensive program for the government, the insurance companies, and for some segment of the population (too rich to be poor, but too poor to afford anything including the penalty).

 

 

However, for Trump to imply that his team had a better plan through Repeal and Replace was a boldfaced lie.

 

Don't separate this out from the GOP and make it seem like it was all Trump. The GOP mislead him and he went along with it and then when they won unexpectedly they got caught in a lie. The Republican party has to own this as much as Trump. Republicans lied to America.

 

 

Let's talk about a Healthcare as a political talking point for a second. The traditional positions prior to the ACA were:

 

- Healthcare is a national social issue and the government should oversee it at a national level with minimum standard care for all (the canada model and the democratic position).

 

- Healthcare is a complex social issue and should be managed at the state level. The Federal government should assist with subsidies but otherwise leave it up to the states to figure out what it's people need (the Romney model and the Republican mainstream social position) and regulate coverage and protection issues.

 

After the ACA, there came a third position:

 

- Heathcare is best served by the free market, regardless of the short term social negatives to people requiring care. Because it is really popular with Americans that it be regulated at the national level we will continue to do so but will will just unrestricted the insurance companies and hope that competition will make them do the right thing in a for profit model (the Trump/tea party position, It is not a "libertarian" position because it keeps a lot of other regulations in place - think of it more as an insurance company economic easing).

 

 

Anything the current administration is putting forward right now is in this third camp, and it's all pretty shitty. It's worse than the other two positions. I do believe there are areas where the "Free market" is beneficial (space exploration for example), but healthcare isn't one of them - it incentivizes poor behavior on the part of the insurance companies.

[o0n8]

random/serious question because I'm not into the healthcare debate as much as most of you guys posting.

 

For those of you that have proposed a flat tax, why shouldn't that include universal health care as a portion of that flat tax? Everybody pays the same amount, everybody gets healthcare.

[BStowers023]

Obamacare flaws...

 

Average Obamacare rates went up 22% across the board and a lot more for a lot of middle class families.

 

If you couldn't afford to have health insurance to begin with, guess what? Here's a hefty fine for you on top of your taxes!

 

Many small to medium sized businesses have had to switch to a cheaper/worse plan and/or drop dental and vision coverage off their plan simply to afford medical coverage for their employees. (I've seen what we pay and it's outrageous)

 

Many businesses have reduced employees hours from full-time to part time to evade the healthcare cost burden. I saw this first hand working in the restaurant industry prior to my current job.

 

A lot of people and their families had to switch from their family physician because their Obamacare plan did not offer them that doctor.

 

The deficit has increased by over $1 trillion under Obamacare

 

Doctors and medical providers often complain about losing more money due to Obamacare (I think we've had a few in this thread actually). They are often forced to take in patients who are low income who don't pay a dime and often don't show up to their appointments because why do they care? They're not paying for it.

[spankis]

For reference, how does the deficit historically fluctuate through a normal, non Obamacare year?

[C-Mart]

The only explanation for Obamacare is that he and Congress are really stupid enough to have thought it would have worked or they tried to crash healthcare to pave the way for single payer. The people who worked in healthcare, myself included saw the consequences coming a mile away.

 

GTO - you defending Obamacare is my last straw. I can now happily avoid reading every letter you type because you have proven to be the progressive cuck king.

[Supplicium]

Anything the current administration is putting forward right now is in this third camp, and it's all pretty shitty. It's worse than the other two positions. I do believe there are areas where the "Free market" is beneficial (space exploration for example), but healthcare isn't one of them - it incentivizes poor behavior on the part of the insurance companies.

 

So the government can run it better than the free market. That is f u c k ing hilarious !

[TTQ B4U]

The only explanation for Obamacare is that he and Congress are really stupid enough to have thought it would have worked or they tried to crash healthcare to pave the way for single payer. The people who worked in healthcare, myself included saw the consequences coming a mile away.

 

they clearly knew it was their way of bullshitting American into a single payer system and leveraging even more entitlements for their voter base.

 

So the government can run it better than the free market. That is f u c k ing hilarious !

 

agree.

[Mallard]

Obamacare flaws...

 

Average Obamacare rates went up 22% across the board and a lot more for a lot of middle class families.

 

Prices went up, but the solution is not to blow up the system and give massive tax cuts to the rich, while raising rates even more on the middle class.

 

If you couldn't afford to have health insurance to begin with, guess what? Here's a hefty fine for you on top of your taxes!

The individual mandate is an important provision for keeping costs down. If only sick people pay into the system premiums will skyrocket/it would be unaffordable. For the same reason car insurance companies need good, accident free drivers, health insurance companies need healthy people to pay into the system.

 

The deficit has increased by over $1 trillion under Obamacare

In 2016 the deficit totaled $590 billion. That's not $1 trillion, and even if it was, it's not all Obamacare. The national debt went up $1.4 trillion in 2016, and $75 billion of that was "because payments to Social Security, Medicare, and Affordable Care Act recipients along with the government's civilian and military retirees were greater during this time frame than FICA and other tax collections." So yea, even $75 billion isn't completely from Obamacare alone.

Doctors and medical providers often complain about losing more money due to Obamacare (I think we've had a few in this thread actually). They are often forced to take in patients who are low income who don't pay a dime and often don't show up to their appointments because why do they care? They're not paying for it.

Pretty sure this was Kirk talking about Medicare patients, not specifically Obamacare.

 

I'm not saying Obamacare is perfect, but let's work with the real facts. The major problem with healthcare is cost, which exists with or without Obamacare.

 

 

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[Geeto67]

Obamacare flaws...

I'm just going respond in red here because it's is easier

 

 

Average Obamacare rates went up 22% across the board and a lot more for a lot of middle class families.

 

Actually the 22% is a projection, and it isn't because of ACA, it's projected as the average across ALL insurance fields. The cause is actually the insurance companies themselves because they estimated their costs too low and set premiums too low because of the miscalculation. http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/10/24/499190020/rates-rise-again-for-obamacare-health-plans-but-so-do-subsidies

 

If you couldn't afford to have health insurance to begin with, guess what? Here's a hefty fine for you on top of your taxes!

 

The fine is hefty, but again it isn't everybody who couldn't afford before - just the people that don't meet the exemption threshold.

 

Many small to medium sized businesses have had to switch to a cheaper/worse plan and/or drop dental and vision coverage off their plan simply to afford medical coverage for their employees. (I've seen what we pay and it's outrageous)

 

Many have also qualified for exemptions and subsidies. There is always going to be some readjustment.

 

Many businesses have reduced employees hours from full-time to part time to evade the healthcare cost burden. I saw this first hand working in the restaurant industry prior to my current job.

 

A lot of people and their families had to switch from their family physician because their Obamacare plan did not offer them that doctor.

 

This is a universal problem with insurance companies and not restricted to ACA. My wife sees a way better dentist than I do because they take her insurance and not mine. I see a way better physician because of the same reason. Neither of us are Affected by ACA. I get that Obama said "you can keep your Dr, and that turned out to be an inaccurate statement, but not because the ACA failed - it's a total industry problem and was before the ACA came on-board

 

The deficit has increased by over $1 trillion under Obamacare

 

The financial crisis and resulting near decade fallout and recovery has contributed more to that than any one singular event.

 

Doctors and medical providers often complain about losing more money due to Obamacare (I think we've had a few in this thread actually). They are often forced to take in patients who are low income who don't pay a dime and often don't show up to their appointments because why do they care? They're not paying for it.

 

And yet the research in this area shows that overall Dr's are getting stiffed less. A lot of the anecdotal complaints I hear seem to relate more to the teething problems of the increase in volume of patients. You get more patients, you get more non-payers and more people missing appointments. It feels like more because you are seeing more people. Physician specialists are actually benefiting most from this because the demand for care has increased leading to an increase in salary - which then contributes to rising cost of care:

http://fortune.com/2016/06/10/obamacare-isnt-stopping-doctors-incomes-from-soaring/

 

 

 

 

 

The only explanation for Obamacare is that he and Congress are really stupid enough to have thought it would have worked or they tried to crash healthcare to pave the way for single payer. The people who worked in healthcare, myself included saw the consequences coming a mile away.

 

GTO - you defending Obamacare is my last straw. I can now happily avoid reading every letter you type because you have proven to be the progressive cuck king.

 

way to keep it classy. And here I thought our mutual love of E30 BMWs would unite us!!!!

 

no skin off my nose - I have no problem if those with neither a taste for facts nor an appetite for discussion want to exclude themselves from the burden of either.

 

 

 

So the government can run it better than the free market. That is f u c k ing hilarious !

 

Literally anything can run it better than the free market. Wanna know why? because there are many many many situations in healthcare where what's best for the individual patient, what's best for society, and what's best for the insurance company are at irreconcilable odds. In a free market for profit situation the insurance company always wins and usually at the cost of the provider and the patient. It's kinda how we got into this mess in the first place.

 

The only way the free market model would work is if every insurance company was required to be a 501©(3) not for profit charity. This would then remove the incentive to decide matters of profit v. quality in favor of profit and allow alternate revenue streams into the business model.

 

I am not saying the government is good at running things, but the free market model doesn't work for healthcare at all where the overarching goal should be quality of care and not value of care.

[zeitgeist57]

random/serious question because I'm not into the healthcare debate as much as most of you guys posting...

 

Please don't lump me in with everyone else. I made a short-sighted comment about how I feel the ACA is viewed in my social- and business-circles, and Kerry ripped it apart.

 

I'm good. No more comments out of me. :thumbup:

[BStowers023]

Literally anything can run it better than the free market.

 

WRONG and I shouldn't even have to explain myself. Free Market > Socialism

 

In a free market for profit situation the insurance company always wins and usually at the cost of the provider and the patient.

 

It's called competition. Free market = competition = lower costs

 

The only way the free market model would work is if every insurance company was required to be a 501©(3) not for profit charity. This would then remove the incentive to decide matters of profit v. quality in favor of profit and allow alternate revenue streams into the business model.

 

I am not saying the government is good at running things, but the free market model doesn't work for healthcare at all where the overarching goal should be quality of care and not value of care.

 

I'm willing to bet if the Govt completely takes over our healthcare, goodbye healthcare innovations and advances, quality of care will go down and overall health will go down. What we SHOULD be doing is incentivizing good health. Kerry, what is one of the biggest concerns right now in America in regards to healthy individuals? I will give you a hint, it involves a scale. You keep talking about how everyone should have "equal" care but not everyone should pay "equal"? Why should a 450lb woman who smokes be given the same healthcare and cost as a woman who maintains a healthy weight and works out 5 times a week? In before you create an argument based on the lowest common denominator because that's what socialists do.

[o0n8]

Please don't lump me in with everyone else. I made a short-sighted comment about how I feel the ACA is viewed in my social- and business-circles, and Kerry ripped it apart.

 

I'm good. No more comments out of me. :thumbup:

 

Ha, it wasn't directed at you or anyone really, just my lack of knowledge on the subject. I have insurance through work, that's the only plan I know.

[RedRocket1647545505]

My insurance premiums went up exactly 150% from last year.

[AngryBMW]

My insurance premiums went up exactly 150% from last year.

 

It's Trump's fault. Duh.

-Marc

[Mallard]

Kerry, what is one of the biggest concerns right now in America in regards to healthy individuals? I will give you a hint, it involves a scale. You keep talking about how everyone should have "equal" care but not everyone should pay "equal"? Why should a 450lb woman who smokes be given the same healthcare and cost as a woman who maintains a healthy weight and works out 5 times a week? In before you create an argument based on the lowest common denominator because that's what socialists do.

 

The insurance company we use at work already does this. People who have better biometric screening results or participate in healthy activities get a credit on their monthly premiums. You pay more if you smoke too.

 

The larger issue (in my opinion) is how do we guarantee ourselves (and others) quality, long term care in case of disease, terminal illness/condition, severe injury, etc. In the past, when something bad happened to you insurance would drop you, you'd be stuck with exorbitant costs, and most likely file for bankruptcy. With ACA they cannot do that and we all end up paying more as a result.

 

If I have a child that's born with a lifelong condition, that is manageable with care, should that spell certain financial ruin for my family, or should he/she be denied health insurance for life? If I get cancer tomorrow should I have to choose between treatment and bankrupting my family? In some cases hospitals won't even treat the patient UNLESS they have insurance, no matter how much cash they have.

 

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[o0n8]

If I have a child that's born with a lifelong condition, that is manageable with care, should that spell certain financial ruin for my family, or should he/she be denied health insurance for life?

 

Don't forget conservative values: Pro-Life until the baby is born; then it's fuck you, pull yourself up by your boot straps.