Playing in the Streets, what's it take these days?

[vonrottes]

WTF.. Even getting old causes you to be a little more responsible and not so crazy. But to turn down a run on the street Damn I think if I was even great grampa old I would still run anytime anywhere . How could you not There's always ways to be safe But you might miss out on one bad a** opportunity that you can never get back. Run Your f****** car Run it hard that's what you build it for. I just get frustrated at this new p**** a** generation apparently being offended by street racing. Or butthurt because their butthurt over everything lol.

 

Am I seriously getting trolled right meow?

[Doc1647545523]

WTF.. But to turn down a run on the street Damn I think if I was even great grampa old I would still run anytime anywhere . How could you not There's always ways to be safe But you might miss out on one bad a** opportunity that you can never get back. Run Your f****** car Run it hard that's what you build it for.

 

 

QFT .... and it's even more fun when you're great-grandpa-old and you honk it off and then put bus lengths on them, because they then have to explain to their buds how some geriatric in a luxury car showed them his taillights.

[bdhill]

smelting...

[Geeesammy]

WTF.. Even getting old causes you to be a little more responsible and not so crazy. But to turn down a run on the street Damn I think if I was even great grampa old I would still run anytime anywhere . How could you not There's always ways to be safe But you might miss out on one bad a** opportunity that you can never get back. Run Your f****** car Run it hard that's what you build it for. I just get frustrated at this new p**** a** generation apparently being offended by street racing. Or butthurt because their butthurt over everything lol.

 

L*****, y** l** l*** a j****** w*** y** t*** l*** t***.

 

I don't think anyone in my age group is a pussy, mainly just too poor to do stupid shit or just really don't want the hassle of dealing with the ticket. It isn't the slap on the wrist like it used to be

[POS VETT]

Just don't go sharing it with Danny Popp. Or a lot of people in general. I've found the boys up North to be slower than down South.

 

Danny Popp showed up and everybody would be gunning for the second place ...

[zeitgeist57]

I don't think anyone in my age group is a pussy, mainly just too poor to do stupid shit or just really don't want the hassle of dealing with the ticket. It isn't the slap on the wrist like it used to be

 

That sounds like pussy talk.

 

Sssh....you guys hear that? Sounds like a big pussy talking right there...

[Linn1647545492]

How many of those people are "Street Cars" and how many are street cars? Being able to drive something that puts down those kind of numbers and can squirt through a 1/4 in 8-9 seconds on the streets is bordering on insanity. We've pushed these platforms to the point where you loose a lot of the fun of racing and it's more of a controlled terror experiment. At least, in my personal opinion.

 

The "I'd rather drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow" isn't totally inaccurate here, even when "slow car" still puts down 500+ HP and shoots through a 1/4 in less than 11 seconds. You get to experience the sensations, maybe even look to your left or right to see how it's going not just tunnel vision hold the peddle down and white knuckle it straight.

 

The new hellcat with bolt-on will trap 140, I'd say that's a street car.

 

My Camaro still has leather seats, A/C and traps 140+. It's what I consider a street car that I can take my wife out in.

 

It's no longer difficult to make 700whp, the difficult part is being able to put it to the ground.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Linn

[wagner]

The new hellcat with bolt-on will trap 140, I'd say that's a street car.

 

My Camaro still had leather seats, A/C and traps 140+. It's what I consider a street car that I can take my wife out in.

 

It's no longer difficult to make 700whp, the difficult part is being able to put it to the ground.

 

Most of the aftermarket ECUs now have some form of traction control, or you can buy a Profiler and be the king of the streets.

 

Problem is that most people don't know how to make those work to their advantage.

[99StockGT]

It's no longer difficult to make 700whp, the difficult part is being able to put it to the ground.

 

Completely agree with modern hardware and tuning you can easily get many platforms to the 700whp range but that doesn't mean it's something they can make go fast and straight.

 

For instance, at our latest CR track day at 42 you had Hellcats there with pulley/spray/tune that are pushing WELL north of 700whp, on slicks, and on a prepped surface doing everything they could to claw into the 9s. Different drivers, different cars, and I believe only 1 of them just barely dipped into the 9.8s. What would that driver/car be able to do on a street pull? 11s and a cloud of tire smoke?

 

Roll racing on the loop? Sure that could be an option, it's far easier to hook and book from a 30 roll than from a stoplight/tree. But even there, when you punch something with that much raw power the rear can/will step out still. I'm battling that same issue on the Phlegm '70 as it is, can't imagine what that's going to be like with double the whp.

[Geeto67]

I'm battling that same issue on the Phlegm '70 as it is, can't imagine what that's going to be like with double the whp.

 

Has anybody talked to you about GM A-body twist yet? Once you cross 400 rwhp the frame and body twist start to get bad enough to put small dents along the body seams. When you cross 500rwhp there is actually a danger of body and frame seems cracking.

 

my GTO put down 350 rwhp on the dyno and I have a few quarter sized dimple dents along the 1/4 panel seam where it meets the roof on both sides from a day of trying to launch on borrowed slicks at my old strip (12 second passes). Go look at the right side frame horn on the car by the upper control arm - there is a vertical weld that if you have ever launched the car hard will crack. you can only really see it with the car off the lift and the suspension unloaded as that will pull the frame open. I had to reweld and reinforce that crack and about 5 others on my GTO's frame when I got it, It was one of the reasons I pulled the body off the frame.

 

GM from the factory put boxed convertible frames in all the early 442s up to 1967, all the '65 Z16 chevelles, and was an option on GTOs and Buicks for their entire run. Even then it still isn't great, which is why guys used to prefer post coupes for these cars and then put in cages.

 

Point is - if you are gonna build an old GM A-body, spend the money and make the frame as stiff as possible. If you are gonna put 700hp into one, put a cage in it. Otherwise this is what you are signing up for:

http://www.hrpartsandstuff.com/images/swaybar/DSC04399w.jpg

[99StockGT]

Oh I fully intend to make sure my first launch in this thing doesn't take me straight into a wall or another car. The entire reason I'm doing it with the '68 and not the '70 is it's basically stripped down already and needs paint/body/suspension/engine work already. Starting with something used abused and put away wet I'm not going to feel bad about replacing all the worn out original stuff with new fancy improved (and safer!) gear.

 

Built motor, transmission, all new front suspension/steering, rear suspension, the biggest best tires I can get in each corner and at least a partial cage to try and keep me alive. Frame supports and upgrades are all a part of the package, never build something your platform simply can't handle.

[Otis Nice]

That sounds like pussy talk.

 

Sssh....you guys hear that? Sounds like a big pussy talking right there...

 

:lolguy:

[Geeesammy]

That sounds like pussy talk.

 

Sssh....you guys hear that? Sounds like a big pussy talking right there...

 

Lemme take you for a ride on 30psi bub.

 

We will see who is the pussy

[Otis Nice]

This thread started at:

 

 

and became:

 

http://www.champion-america.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/img/K0090.jpg

[evil8]

Where is that Turbo Nova clown. His shits weak.

[88lx5oh]

Agreed with the traction topic. That's my biggest issue in my car, still trying to dial it in, but running 305/45-17 ET steet Rs @ 18psi on the street, it will still stripe the highway from an 80 roll

[Mace1647545504]

You know it's funny reading through these posts. I'm old and anyone who has met will tell you...jezz mace is old.

My youngest and I were talking about the old days vs today and I told him it amazed me the stock hp put out by today's cars.

The numbers you talk about were only in funnys or dragsters and they were running 9s/10s on good days.

On the street if you could get 300/400 hp rwh it was amazing and you'd run 12s maybe on a great day you could breeze an 11.99 and you had to have gears (456s) but that killed your top end.

So anyway I just thought I'd throw in my .02

 

Later

mace

[99StockGT]

It really is incredible looking at the progression we have seen in production cars. In the muscle car era of the late 60s early 70s you had big displacement high torque street machines that could destroy a tire in a cloud of smoke and maybe shoot to something akin to 13s on the street. The 80s were worthless for the most part except for a few slightly shining examples of turbo usage but rarely a production car that could break into the 13s. The 90s we saw the rise of the imports, more turbo usage with better tech, a bit of rebirth in the muscle car era as we inched closer to that 300hp factory car again. 13s could be had but still not very common.

 

As we roll into the 2000s things seem to shift. It's become something akin to a nuclear arms race for power/performance/numbers. Tire technology improves immensely allowing cars to actually USE their big power numbers for something other than a smoke show.

 

2010s Computer technology and tuning have greatly improved allowing more to be done with less. Decades of turbo experience and greater understanding of boost applications allow the arms race to continue. Basic LS and Coyote motors begin getting simple bolt on kits talented wrenches can do in a weekend at home become more common. Power numbers that used to be reserved for a "Blown or Sprayed Big Block" can now be had with some tuning, 2 small snails, and some piping. The big manufacturers get in on the game, supporting and encouraging these developments feeding the beast as we pursue greater and greater production numbers.

 

Looking back just a decade, 375awhp could rocket me easily into the 12s with an aggressive launch and give me a fighting chance against most anything from a stoplight. Unfortunately the next step up the performance ladder is injectors, new ECU, new turbos, new intercoolers, then likely shortly after that a transmission/transfer case upgrade. Easily costs eclipsing $10,000 something I just couldn't justify for another 150awhp when I could stand my ground as is. However now...

 

It feels almost like we've pushed this "Sport" to a level that's on the edge of impossible. So in a world where 600+ hp mustangs/corvettes/camaros roam the streets, where minivans come with 300+ hp and can run 1/4 times in the 15s where once your production V8s roamed less than 20 years ago...where does it go from here?

 

A nod to the things we are seeing out of the electric/hybrid world. Capable of sprints of the showroom floor that simply ludicrous.

 

But, back to the topic at hand. Those of you who are yourselves, or know someone competitive currently what's it take for an invitation to the dance? Is running a mid 11 on a "street tire" competitive in the world we've built? Is most of it roll racing or are we doing digs on side streets and industrial parks? Hep me build this thing right and not waste money!

[99StockGT]

Well, on this topic a little interesting bit of news. Looks like 1320 Video and Street Car Takeover are coming to Columbus in June? So...here we go!

 

https://imgur.com/a/3KB2z

[Red Beard]

That should be a good time lol

[99StockGT]

Going to be very very interesting to see how they set up the "Street Meets" thing.... can see that becoming a very expensive night out for a cruise with how CPD has been for the last several years. Making solid progress on the '68 the last few days, with everything going reasonably smooth should be streetable by spring.

 

As we see more and more cars converting from carb+spray to Fuel Injection+Forced Induction still weighing engine options before the final triggers are pulled. The rule of "How Fast do you want to spend" is most certainly realistic!

[10phone2]

What are some of the things CPD has been doing? I typically don't see them pissing with modded cars, but I don't frequent the hang out spots. With the event coming up, I think I will finally have to focus on the corolla since the cressida is gone.

[Geeto67]

 

As we see more and more cars converting from carb+spray to Fuel Injection+Forced Induction still weighing engine options before the final triggers are pulled. The rule of "How Fast do you want to spend" is most certainly realistic!

 

I have to be honest, unless you are the kind of sado-masochist that wants to make four figures with a pontiac engine, I don't know why you aren't going LS with a giant turbo. I was just reading the hot rod article on them "stress testing" to failure a 6.0L Gen III LQ4 stock bottom end. They pushed 28.4 PSI into a stock block/rods/crank before it failed and it made 1,483 hp. at 14.6 psi they were over the 1000hp mark. It's not exactly "budget" but it isn't a Pro-Line 482ci "Small block" either (in case you are wondering they are $40K). the engine they used had 246,000 miles to boot so this is kind of spectacular.

 

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1711-how-much-boost-can-a-6l-ls-truck-short-block-take/

 

I am not telling you what to do, but if I were in your shoes this is exactly what I would do.

[99StockGT]

Kerry, I'm trying not to develop a twitch from reading that While yes, everyone who's ever read a car magazine or seen a Youtube video knows the LS is a great powerplant to make crazy power out of it's not even anywhere near the conversation for me. If your car is a Chevy, or came with an LS in it, good for you. Buy one of the 100 bolt on turbo kit options and boost it to the moon. You'll have impressively high dependability and gobs more power than most anyone should be allowed to have.

 

Let me grab my soap box

<begin rant>

 

For me personally sticking an LS in anything to make it fast is boring and rather a bit of "cheating". I have nothing against the platform, and Chevy built an incredible new generation to succeed their SBC that ruled the hot rod world for so long. The process is easy to follow. Buy RWD low weight platform, stick LS in it, order wiring harness, complete process, make fast car. However, it feels exactly the same as seeing a SBC between the fenders of a Ford/Chrysler/Whatever. Yes it's cheap. Yes easy to work on. Yes it's good for cheap power. And yes I can drive down to Jegs pick one up and have a 500hp motor running in an afternoon.

 

Honestly it feels the same way on the modern GTO/G8, although it wore a Pontiac arrow head there wasn't really any Pontiac there. While I appreciate the cars and have kicked around buying myself one over the years, essentially you just have a very fast camaro with a different body.

 

</rant>

 

What I had meant with my comment about "weighing engine options" is what direction I'll go with the Pontiac motor build. Turbo, Nitrous, Procharged, Carb or Fuel Injection, high compressions N/A ... at this point it's all on the table still. And to be completely up front with everyone I have gone back and forth numerous times about the direction I want to go. Each has its appeal, each has its detractors. A huge portion of why I started this thread was to help me answer this exact question..

 

What does it take, to play in the streets these days?

 

Do I need 600whp? 800? 1000+? If 600 will do I can make a monster pump gas stoker motor with aluminum heads and get there without much issue on a good carb. 800? Well now we are talking that same built long block but with a 200 shot. OR, you can get that same 200 without having to refill a bottle by going turbo/procharged however that decision adds considerable cost as we are talking EFI, forged internals, low compression, etc etc.. 1000? Well now we are talking a partially filled block, and either a built motor with a whole lot of spray on race gas with EFI and timing control, or a big boost stroker application with all kinds of goodies on the inside to take the punishment and not saw itself in half.

 

There's a HUGE difference in cost moving up from 600+ to 1000+ and while I DO enjoy spending money, if I can save myself $4000-$5000 in this process and still be competitive with what's out there playing now I'll gladly hold my cash for something else. Sorry for yet another long winded post but hey, I talk to much, y'all should know that by now

[Geeto67]

Austin,

 

As someone who occasionally bleeds Pontiac engine metallic blue (once a month, usually out my vagina, I should probably have that looked at), I can understand the desire to want to keep a pontiac engine in the car.

 

However, it is hard to argue with the advantages of modern technology and sometimes things are popular because they work. Every pontiac engine is old technology and honestly kinda shitty. I don't know if you are aware of this but 1/6th of all 400's were shipped with cranks out of phase - pontiac's solution was to run a big harrison 3 core radiator and use a temp overheat idiot light that went off a 240-260 degrees. People talk about how the LS is not a "real" pontiac, but honestly, do you have a real pontiac if you have a butler performance block, sonny leonard crank, scat rods and ross pistons? I don't really thinks so - it's something else that maybe pays tribute to a pontiac but it isn't any more pontiac than an LS engine.

 

I love how people want to be "brand loyal" with the drivetrain but will overlook something like the entire frame, floor pan, and suspension are the same pieces under a chevelle or a cutlass and shared across 2 other cars. When it comes to speed brand loyalty is a liability not an asset.

 

The point of a hot rod is to go fast. It doesn't really matter how. The LS engines have made that possible because instead of spending $30K on a custom block, heads, intake, etc...you can spend $10K and be able to at least get in the ring of fast street cars. It isn't "cheating" it's just easier. My father used to say brand loyalty doesn't matter, in the 50's your buddy's 50's ford would have a pontiac 331 or an olds J2 engine and the wiring would burn up while you were driving because that's what a hot rod is - a mutt. If you want to "challenge" yourself by keeping it somewhat brand loyal then by all mean go ahead, but just understand you aren't building a fast street car you are building a fast "brand X" which may or may not also be a fast street car. At that point you shouldn't ask "what does it take to play in the street" but rather what am I and my budget capable of?

 

Honestly, if you really wanted to be different - you'd put a worked turbo diesel in it. And that would shock everyone, and nobody would accuse you of cheating. I hear the duramax diesels can make 910hp and 1700 ft lbs of torque:

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0906phr-1970-chevy-chevelle-turbo-diesel/

 

It will be way cheaper than a fast poncho mill.