10phone2 Posted November 29, 2018 Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 I love the smell of capitalism in the morning. Confucius says, make shitty car and soon you'll be closing factory. lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted November 29, 2018 Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) I'm going to start with you clearly know more about this than me but... $7.00 per hour difference between Toyota & GM. $7.00 x 40 (I'm not even factoring in the overtime they probably all get). = 280 x 52 (weeks) = 14,560 x1500 workers = $21,840,000 difference per year... Thats a huge difference... Just saying. The state of the art paint shop they put in there in recent years cost 20mil... They are spending more than that by a lot (once you factor overtime) per year per employee. You should really read the article, they address all that. It wouldn't be $7.00 per hour difference in the workers pocket, it's $3.00 $3.00 x 40= 120 x 52 = 6,240 which is what the GM (and Ford and Chrysler since they pay similar wages) worker will see gross in his paycheck (pre tax) over a Toyota worker. The other $4 per hour pays for retirement healthcare which GM has a lot of retirees and Toyota doesn't because it hasn't been operating in this country as long as GM, the longer they stay, the more that cost is going to rise for Toyota until it matches the big three. I have to point out that GM also has a lot more workers than Toyota, and that the hourly wage is an average. GM operates in some cheap places to live like rural ohio, but also in much larger cities with higher cost of living like NY. And we are not including the mexico and Canadian mfg sites which would bring the number down some, because they are outside the US. Point of all this is....Stop blaming the workers. As far as domestic manufactured cars are concerned the big three pay a competitive wage, offer decent benefits, and what overages they pay over the competition are in offering benefits that incentivise people to be company loyal and stay their whole careers at GM. You want to blame the products, or the inability to run an assembly line as efficiently as the Japanese or Germans be my guest, they are the most likely culprit. It isn't the union, and it isn't the working stiffs - it used to be in the 80's and 90's but again that has to do with corporate mismanagement more than the guys on the line and those days are gone. Wanna know who is overpaid at GM? the executives, because they historically haven't gotten a good value for the money they paid. The Detroit/Hamtramck plant is a perfect example of this - it was supposed to be an efficient factory that sprang from the partnership from toyota that reduced cost per unit. they overpaid for the land (and stole it from an entire neighborhood through emminent domain), they overpaid building it out, and once it was built it didn't come close to the efficiency of Toyota's line. It was better than it used to be for GM, but it took a while to be competitive (and still isn't really). Edited November 29, 2018 by Geeto67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdk 4219 Posted November 29, 2018 Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 There is a lot of blame being placed on the UAW, but really GM made those deals. There are plenty of instances where GM executives created things like the Jobs bank because they didn't think it through. For those who don't know the Jobs bank (where a laid off worker could get 95% of his wages sitting around) was the creation of GM executives who thought they would never have to use it and weren't too careful about running the numbers - the UAW agreed to it because they saw it as GM giving them free money. A lot of GM'a negotiations are like that - GM proposing some alternative item for negotiation with the union that blows up in their faces. Roger Smith, Bob Stempel, and Rick Wagoner each did damage to GM tht would take decades to undo. The damage Smith did in the 1980's was still being felt in 2009 when the bailout happened. Let's not rush to blame the UAW workers who are the blue collar backbone of america, or the semi fictional boogeyman of the lawsuit, when in fact GM has had literally some of the worst executives in the auto industry making some really dumb decisions. Ford, Chrysler, BMW, and Mercedes all have unions in their houses and they don't have near the problems GM has. But these plants closing aren't about union wages - they are about products that aren't selling. GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc...are all pivoting because people are not buying sedans and compacts. in GM's case, the plants they are closing aren't able to make anything else that GM is making right now, and GM is getting rid of unprofitable low volume products anyway. All the automakers are doing this, but GM is the biggest so when it takes a proactive approach like this it makes news. Yes and no....sort of....In 2010, GM paid back the loan portion of the Bailout with interest ahead of schedule. However, the bailout included a loan and a stock purchase, and in selling off the stock, the government took a loss selling the shares for less than what they paid for them. They also forgave an approx $800m loan the government gave GM back as part of the initial bankruptcy filing before the new loan was given. Says the idiot lawyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted November 29, 2018 Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 Says the idiot lawyer prove me wrong, I'll wait. Why do you hate the American blue collar worker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdk 4219 Posted November 29, 2018 Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 The UAW has been running GM and many others for years, if they don’t get what they want, they threaten strike. The stories of employees getting double time for doing nothing are not isolated, but rampant. The GM management which many weren’t UAW, we’re helpless against the pay and underproduction of many workers. Apparently you didn’t read JP’s post about his uncle, or if you did, you didn’t think it was imperative. For those of you that are mathematically challenged, this is the outcome of spending too much to make something. It’s nice to pay $54 per hour with full benefits and retirement, but isn’t feasible with competition that doesn’t play in an equal field. I only dislike laziness, lawyers and individuals that have the Dunning Kruger effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted November 29, 2018 Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) The UAW has been running GM and many others for years, if they don’t get what they want, they threaten strike. The stories of employees getting double time for doing nothing are not isolated, but rampant. The GM management which many weren’t UAW, we’re helpless against the pay and underproduction of many workers. Apparently you didn’t read JP’s post about his uncle, or if you did, you didn’t think it was imperative. so your proof is conjecture, second hand stories, and speculation? I mean come on man, you literally didn't cite anything to back it up other than "you hear what that other guy said". Don't be lazy. Your information and thinking is way outdated. There was a time when the UAW had a stanglehold on the automakers but the big bailout and financial crisis took a lot out of any leverage unions had with the big three. the Job bank was a terrible idea, and yes - from the 1980's till 2009 there was exactly that, surplus workers who were overpaid while sitting idle. But remember, the job bank was GM's idea, not the UAW, and was politically supported by Reagan at the time it was introduced. There once was a time when what you were saying was ramptant and true, but after the bailout things changed. http://www.autonews.com/article/20140127/OEM/301279990/the-end-of-the-jobs-bank-a-symbol-of-excess https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2009/06/ronald-reagan-and-general-motors/18813/ by the way, if there is a worker not busy enough, or not being put to good use - that's management's fault, not the workers. That's their job, to MANAGE the workforce. If GM made a bad deal with the union, that's not the worker's fault - that's GM's management's fault for not doing their homework. For those of you that are mathematically challenged, this is the outcome of spending too much to make something. It’s nice to pay $54 per hour with full benefits and retirement, but isn’t feasible with competition that doesn’t play in an equal field. Spending too much to make something is def a problem here, but it's not on labor which traditionally makes up about 10% of the cost of the vehicle, not the 30% figure I see tossed around by conservatives. https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?_r=0 http://www.autonews.com/article/20151120/OEM01/151129988/gm-contract-may-yield-flat-per-vehicle-labor-costs-even-with-hourly https://www.dw.com/en/big-carmakers-big-profits/a-19480709 The reality is that a company like toyota runs a more efficient line than GM, has a corporate culture that contributes to constant innovation, and doesn't have any of the bloat at the top like the general. Everything it does it does cheaper than GM, not just pay the workforce. Even it's executive people make less (executives at GM are not UAW). https://hbr.org/2008/06/the-contradictions-that-drive-toyotas-success https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5514/4350856/ By the way I should point out that Mercedes and BMW have unions in germany, and pay their workers equalivent wages and benefits, and are more profitable than GM as well....so this idea that it is all the lazy line workers fault is bunkum. https://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/the-end-of-poverty/why-are-bmw-and-mercedes-so-rich I only dislike laziness, lawyers and individuals that have the Dunning Kruger effect. you are literally the embodiment of the Dunning Kruger effect, but that makes sense in how much I can see you dislike yourself. If you don't hate the american worker, they why do you constantly blame them for the mistakes of GM's management? the UAW isn't the boogey man coming to put the american car industry out of business, it was an advocate of the working class to make sure the top of the house didn't take advantage of the little guy. There were years where GM had more leverage, and years when the union did, and while it is easy (and true) to say the UAW contributed to the need for a bailout, you also have to acknowledge that they were instrumental in working with GM to continue operating post bailout and help figure out a sustainable future. Or you can go back to pretending it's still 2007 while the rest of us have an conversation about the present. Edited November 29, 2018 by Geeto67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted November 29, 2018 Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 Be Chrysler: have line workers drinking beers and schmoking-some-wheed on the job, still make cars people want to buy and be seen in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted November 29, 2018 Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 Be Chrysler: have line workers drinking beers and schmoking-some-wheed on the job, still make cars people want to buy and be seen in. an FCA employee I knew used to say "We make the best looking bullshit on the road" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdk 4219 Posted November 29, 2018 Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 so your proof is conjecture, second hand stories, and speculation? I mean come on man, you literally didn't cite anything to back it up other than "you hear what that other guy said". Don't be lazy. Your information and thinking is way outdated. There was a time when the UAW had a stanglehold on the automakers but the big bailout and financial crisis took a lot out of any leverage unions had with the big three. the Job bank was a terrible idea, and yes - from the 1980's till 2009 there was exactly that, surplus workers who were overpaid while sitting idle. But remember, the job bank was GM's idea, not the UAW, and was politically supported by Reagan at the time it was introduced. There once was a time when what you were saying was ramptant and true, but after the bailout things changed. http://www.autonews.com/article/20140127/OEM/301279990/the-end-of-the-jobs-bank-a-symbol-of-excess https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2009/06/ronald-reagan-and-general-motors/18813/ by the way, if there is a worker not busy enough, or not being put to good use - that's management's fault, not the workers. That's their job, to MANAGE the workforce. If GM made a bad deal with the union, that's not the worker's fault - that's GM's management's fault for not doing their homework. Spending too much to make something is def a problem here, but it's not on labor which traditionally makes up about 10% of the cost of the vehicle, not the 30% figure I see tossed around by conservatives. https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?_r=0 http://www.autonews.com/article/20151120/OEM01/151129988/gm-contract-may-yield-flat-per-vehicle-labor-costs-even-with-hourly https://www.dw.com/en/big-carmakers-big-profits/a-19480709 The reality is that a company like toyota runs a more efficient line than GM, has a corporate culture that contributes to constant innovation, and doesn't have any of the bloat at the top like the general. Everything it does it does cheaper than GM, not just pay the workforce. Even it's executive people make less (executives at GM are not UAW). https://hbr.org/2008/06/the-contradictions-that-drive-toyotas-success https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5514/4350856/ By the way I should point out that Mercedes and BMW have unions in germany, and pay their workers equalivent wages and benefits, and are more profitable than GM as well....so this idea that it is all the lazy line workers fault is bunkum. https://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/the-end-of-poverty/why-are-bmw-and-mercedes-so-rich you are literally the embodiment of the Dunning Kruger effect, but that makes sense in how much I can see you dislike yourself. If you don't hate the american worker, they why do you constantly blame them for the mistakes of GM's management? the UAW isn't the boogey man coming to put the american car industry out of business, it was an advocate of the working class to make sure the top of the house didn't take advantage of the little guy. There were years where GM had more leverage, and years when the union did, and while it is easy (and true) to say the UAW contributed to the need for a bailout, you also have to acknowledge that they were instrumental in working with GM to continue operating post bailout and help figure out a sustainable future. Or you can go back to pretending it's still 2007 while the rest of us have an conversation about the present. While you have a conversation, keep down the path of making excuses for unions, hopefully you teach your children to speak Chinese, they will need it. You seem to have all the answers, but really none of the solutions. You never seem to have any solutions, just arguments, which you certainly are good at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 While you have a conversation, keep down the path of making excuses for unions, hopefully you teach your children to speak Chinese, they will need it. You seem to have all the answers, but really none of the solutions. You never seem to have any solutions, just arguments, which you certainly are good at. solution to what? GM has the solution, close the plants and lay off the workers. Ford's solution was to transfer them to SUV production, which to me seems bold because it relies on speculation that the more expensive suvs will carry the volume of their cheaper sedans. It sucks for the workers, but remember GM tried a "different" solution back in the 1980's where it expected the Reagan tariffs to drive demand to domestic cars and instead of laying off workers it created the job bank fiasco. Ford is going to try and do it now, and I suspect it's only to avoid the publicity of a layoff right now that it will make eventually later on in smaller numbers and more discreet ways. GM is trying to fix its corporate culture but that is going to take a while. Here we are 10 years down from the bailout and the scars aren't fully healed. Although there is some change, it may be another 10 before we see a "new" GM, provided they don't backslide. China is not about to overtake us anytime soon. It doesn't mean they aren't gaining leverage in the world economy, but in many ways they are still a developing nation. this is the same "better lean to speak Hindi" from the early 00's, or "better learn to speak Japanese" from the 80's and 90's. Xenophobic garbage that' is supposed to scare you to vote for nationalist politicians. sure we all eat sushi now, but it is because it is good, not because the Japanese took over america like they said way back when. https://citywire.co.uk/wealth-manager/news/is-china-still-the-major-emerging-markets-powerhouse/a1093954 https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/is-china-the-technology-powerhouse-it-claims-to-be/3009383.article you know who has to worry in this country? unskilled laborers, but not from china - from technology. there will always bee a need for skilled laborers of a wide variety, but those who do the unskilled jobs in this country are being replaced by touch screens and robots. Have you been to a fast food restaurant lately? lots of touch screens. You want a solution? increase educational spending in this country, and fix student lending. Forget teaching my kid Chinese, she's gonna learn to code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 you know who has to worry in this country? unskilled laborers, but not from china - from technology. there will always bee a need for skilled laborers of a wide variety, but those who do the unskilled jobs in this country are being replaced by touch screens and robots. Have you been to a fast food restaurant lately? lots of touch screens. You want a solution? increase educational spending in this country, and fix student lending. Forget teaching my kid Chinese, she's gonna learn to code. Forget teaching your kid to code. Teach your kid how to fix a damn leak, wiring issue, or how to diagnose a furnace. You think the IT world isn't flooded with folks? Ask Mitch. When I graduated (2001) we'd all been told that coding/IT/whatever was what was going to be in demand. We were ushered/herded to learn all we could about computers. We all did. What happened? Shit ton of IT folks. VERY few in the trades. I saw it early enough to leave college and learn skills. I learned code, design, etc. Hard pass. Too many out there. I've seen a HS grad with NO skills land a job as an HVAC apprentice making $22/hour at 18 years old. I've seen the same in plumbing, electrical, etc. The trades are EMPTY. The IT world is flooded. We were all told it was big money, a comfy job, and easy. Folks need technology, no doubt. I think the biggest issue is you can work inside in a warm office (hopefully with windows and no asbestos) and make a decent living. Everyone has and will always need electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc. I work as a Maint Supervisor over two buildings and it's hard for me to get our contractors out in a reasonable time frame because they're so busy. Coding? Meh. Best of luck to her. Can she turn a wrench and is willing to show up on time and work hard? Here's more than some coders with a decades experience make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10phone2 Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Yea I personally wouldn't teach my kids to go into IT. To me, she would be better off to have a strong math back ground, enough computer science classes to do data structures and algorithms, computational logic, statistical modeling, and a finance degree. People that can do data modeling based on business issues to create solutions I can see being in high demand for years to come. Even if that isn't her cup of tea. . . knowing how to weld, do basic framing around a house, wiring, and drywall/plaster will give her the options to rebuild just about anything in her house down the road or do it as a trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 I am not teaching her coding as a job skill...she's six. At this point I regard it as a basic life skill, similar to being handy. She can worry about the job training when she is actually eligible to enter the job market. Computers aren't going anywhere and the way I see it coding is going to be one of those things like plumbing, electricity, woodworking, etc...It's not in lieu of, its in addition to the other skills she is gaining. I leave the language lessons to my wife, she speaks 4 of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace1647545504 Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 I'm going to take a different view of this. I feel that as gas got cheaper we went to larger less fuel efficient vehicles. Look at the dumb 4 two, brought out when gas was over 3.50 going into the $5 range they were all the rage now you can't give them away. So I predict when gas goes 3.50 and up the sedan will come back. But i will agree GM needs to make a better looking vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Computers aren't going anywhere... Not until the EMP anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 . Look at the dumb 4 two, brought out when gas was over 3.50 going into the $5 range they were all the rage now you can't give them away. Here's the thing with that stupid car. It gets 39 mpg highway. You can easily find similar fuel economy in a normal sized sedan. If it had gotten like 75 mpg people may have been more willing to make that trade off. Fuel economy is where it had to stand out, and it just doesn't. As it stands, there is no legitimate need. It does nothing but fit in parking garages easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Here's the thing with that stupid car. It gets 39 mpg highway. You can easily find similar fuel economy in a normal sized sedan. If it had gotten like 75 mpg people may have been more willing to make that trade off. Fuel economy is where it had to stand out, and it just doesn't. As it stands, there is no legitimate need. It does nothing but fit in parking garages easily. urban parking. not parking garages but actual urban parking is it's home. When I lived in Brooklyn, there were several on my street and when the spot was too small for the car lengthwise, they would back them in to the curb like a motorcycle. I loved city riding on a motorcycle because I could park anywhere, but I could understand the appeal if my wife didn't want to ride on the back. Thankfully she liked motorcycles and so I never had to consider a smart fortwo. now I will say I have run into people who aren't car people, or motorcycle people (too dangerous!!!) but think driving around 3 empty seats is a waste of space but don't want a sports car like a miata either. I am not saying they are many but that's usually who considers a smartcar. It dovetails into the zero waste movement I have been seeing lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 I loved city riding on a motorcycle because I could park anywhere, but I could understand the appeal if my wife didn't want to ride on the back. Thankfully she liked motorcycles and so I never had to consider a smart fortwo. I would love to see your wear a fortwo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Here's the thing with that stupid car. It gets 21 mpg highway. You can easily find similar fuel economy in a turbo-6 or 8-cylinder fullsize truck. If it had gotten like 75 mpg people may have been more willing to make that trade off. Fuel economy is where it had to stand out, and it just doesn't. Comment amended for relevance to the new Silverado 2.7T. EDIT: How do you stall a new truck on center ice at a NHL game? :lol: https://jalopnik.com/the-new-chevy-silverado-trail-boss-stalling-on-detroits-1830769305 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Comment amended for relevance to the new Silverado 2.7T. EDIT: How do you stall a new truck on center ice at a NHL game? :lol: https://jalopnik.com/the-new-chevy-silverado-trail-boss-stalling-on-detroits-1830769305 GMLOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordell Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Comment amended for relevance to the new Silverado 2.7T. EDIT: How do you stall a new truck on center ice at a NHL game? :lol: https://jalopnik.com/the-new-chevy-silverado-trail-boss-stalling-on-detroits-1830769305 Having done the training on the 2.7T recently I wouldn’t touch that fucker. Stupid overly complicated cooling system with no thermostat and too many lines, and it’s retarded sliding camshafts. Hard pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Having done the training on the 2.7T recently I wouldn’t touch that fucker. Stupid overly complicated cooling system with no thermostat and too many lines, and it’s retarded sliding camshafts. Hard pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 https://jalopnik.com/the-new-chevy-silverado-trail-boss-stalling-on-detroits-1830769305 Yesterday I learned that the Redwings and Little Ceasars is owned by the same people. So I thought to myself, "I wonder if they have Little Ceasars logos plastered all inside their arena". You just answered that totally off topic question. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Yesterday I learned that the Redwings and Little Ceasars is owned by the same people. So I thought to myself, "I wonder if they have Little Ceasars logos plastered all inside their arena". You just answered that totally off topic question. Thanks. If only there was some way to use this here internet to search for an answer to questions such as these. Maybe even on a hand held device so we can perform searches on the go. We should invent something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0n8 Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Here's the thing with that stupid car. It gets 39 mpg highway. You can easily find similar fuel economy in a normal sized sedan. If it had gotten like 75 mpg people may have been more willing to make that trade off. Fuel economy is where it had to stand out, and it just doesn't. As it stands, there is no legitimate need. It does nothing but fit in parking garages easily. Whatever happened to the Elio that one guy on this forum was all about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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