Issue 2 debate on NBC 4- NOW

[Sixgun]

Interesting story:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-26/nurse-making-269-810-demonstrates-california-s-overtime-binge.html

Never happen here lol. The FF here should be ticked...are the fires tuffer in California?

[marca]

As one of the people who is expected to work beyond age 65 so that we can afford to pay for public union employees to retire with pension and health care after 20 years and can't be fired even when they are lazy or incompetent, I will be voting for issue 2.

[Casper]

I bet the Fire Station in Lancaster has an opinion about this!!

Uhm... ok? This bill doesn't really have anything to do with why the city no longer has the tax revenue to support three separate fire stations. Or did I miss something else here?

[bowdog]

I believe the way we are being sold on this bill is if the union employed people are not able to or willing too come up with some of there benifits, then the city's and tax payers will have to keep picking up the tab... Maybe i am wrong but if the City is out of money and the tax payers do not accept more tax increases then what else can you do BUT shut fire stations and police hubs down? Maybe i am wrong here and if i am someone please explain to me what i am missing? Please don't get this wrong either, my brother is a police officer but i would rather see him have to pay into his benifits rather than lose his job because the city cannot afford to have local police on the streets, and will have to rely on the Sherriff's dept to police the town.

[Sixgun]

Uhm... ok? This bill doesn't really have anything to do with why the city no longer has the tax revenue to support three separate fire stations. Or did I miss something else here?

If you look hard I think you can answer your own question. Maybe the lack of jobs and amount of taxes have something to do with it?

Supply (taxes) and demand (Union wages and benifits)= Less Union workers. Which won't effect those with senority...If I'm bound to pay 10 people $$$$ and I only have $$, I can only afford $$=5.

Wait and see the "middle class" folks who vote for this...then have to vote for the levy's to pay for it! The people of Ohio stand with the "Middle class" workers. "What...wait...we have to pay?"...I thought the evil goverment was just hoarding this money to pay the governors advisors more!!!!

[sturg]

As one of the people who is expected to work beyond age 65 so that we can afford to pay for public union employees to retire with pension and health care after 20 years and can't be fired even when they are lazy or incompetent, I will be voting for issue 2.

Lazy and incompetent firefighters who dont get fired, get forced out. We're the ones that have to work with them you know.

The public thinking that just because you're in a union you're a lazy ass hole pisses me off to the Nth degree. The purpose for our unions to have a unified voice for a group of guys with common interests. That's it.

Furthermore just about every firefighter i know has at least 1 extra job and spends a shit ton of time at the FD not getting paid, setting up community or Junior fire fighter programs or doing additional training.

Not to S my on D but i work for 2 fire departments, Columbus states EMS education program, CPR instuction (on my own accord) and was just offered a job with Grant's Life Link program to be an educator for the new Advanced stroke education initiative they are launching in 2012. An i'm in full time nursing school.

When it comes to finances, I contribute to SS but will get none of it as a public employee. I have my own investment portfolio along with what i have from work. Any where else i work, i max my 401k or 403b out. I make less than 40k a year and drive a paid off 2002 Mazda tribue with 160,000 miles. I plan on working as long as my knees and back hold up. And then ill find something else to do

As far as layoff, id rather put that into the hands of the voters in the city or township than a single state Governor that continue to lie to voters to get on a potential presidential ticket.

Edited October 27, 2011 by sturg

[sturg]

And while were sitting here debating this issue, last night 4 CFD firefighters were in a fire that got so hot, the smoke, along with everything else, combusted (flash over). 2 were burnt and jumped out a 2nd story window with 1st and 2nd degree burns and ortho injuries. 2 other in the same room dove head first down a fight of stairs. Temperatures exceeded 1200F.They were searching teh house to make sure none of the family was inside.

Keep that shit in mind when you think were lazy union members with better jobs than you.

I've been on the FD for 5-6years. Ive landed myself in the hospital 4 times so far with injuries sustained on calls/at work. 1 trap, 2 grade 3 sprains and 1 knee dislocation.

Edited October 27, 2011 by sturg

[sturg]

Crybabies.

+1

[Bad324]

a single state Governor that continue to lie to voters to get on a potential presidential ticket.

I wouldn't be so sure thats his agenda

[fireman_343]

Lazy and incompetent firefighters who dont get fired, get forced out. We're the ones that have to work with them you know.

The public thinking that just because you're in a union you're a lazy ass hole pisses me off to the Nth degree. The purpose for our unions to have a unified voice for a group of guys with common interests. That's it.

oh yeah!! This pisses me off too!! I can't believe people think that way, even if I do the bare minimum around the fire house or just sit around doing nothing, the captain will notice and annotate this in my job performance evaluations and if I get enough bad reports on those you can be fired on that account alone!

NO ON ISSUE 2!!!

[Sixgun]

A couple of questions and points for our Firefighters: So once your contract is ratified for what ever amount of time, what does your Union do for you and who do they spend there time protecting? be honest...

FF's work two jobs because they want to or need to? Side note I saw a new f-250 ford with a "Vote no on two FF" bumpersticker pulling a 30 foot RV. I don't say he shouldn't have it..I'm just noting it. Same day the local commercial landscaper is wearing his FF T-shirt. Again it's cool he has a side job, but does he have to have it, or because the time off affords it to him?

The GC fire departments are imaculate, but while I was doing a Scout tour some of the guys were installing a supercharger on a FF's truck in one of the bays. Again a great job if you can get it.

My next store neighbor is a CMH officer with a vote no sign in his yard. His wife is a nurse. He has several rental properties and does very well (which is cool). My wife teaches, every time there is a school levy. he and his wife vote no and tell us that teachers are paid two much (requires a masters, or did), get two much time off , and you can't get rid of bad teachers, etc. etc.

You guys have a tuff job and I respect you all. But it's one of those don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining moments. The public image isn't working.

I wish everyone to acheive the American dream through individual acheivement.

Just my .02

[kawi kid]

If you work to reach the American dream you are hated by the 99%ers lol

[ohiomike]

A side note here.....not sure how medical expenses are for FF retirees here in Ohio, or whether its a jurisdictional issue, but where we came from there were many retired FF's with many chronic medical issues which came from oji's. Because of the economy there retiree benefits were cut back, including medical benefits. What ended up happening was a lot of devoted FF's who managed to make it to retirement with their broken bodies had to suffer along without much needed meds and or treatments.

I am sure retiree benefits fit right in with the Ohio issue.

[Uncle Punk]

GM retirees had their healthcare benefits taken away as well. If there isn't enough money to pay for things it's bound to happen. I'm sure they would have liked to ask others to pay for their benefits as well.

[fireman_343]

A couple of questions and points for our Firefighters: So once your contract is ratified for what ever amount of time, what does your Union do for you and who do they spend there time protecting? be honest...

FF's work two jobs because they want to or need to? Side note I saw a new f-250 ford with a "Vote no on two FF" bumpersticker pulling a 30 foot RV. I don't say he shouldn't have it..I'm just noting it. Same day the local commercial landscaper is wearing his FF T-shirt. Again it's cool he has a side job, but does he have to have it, or because the time off affords it to him?

The GC fire departments are imaculate, but while I was doing a Scout tour some of the guys were installing a supercharger on a FF's truck in one of the bays. Again a great job if you can get it.

My next store neighbor is a CMH officer with a vote no sign in his yard. His wife is a nurse. He has several rental properties and does very well (which is cool). My wife teaches, every time there is a school levy. he and his wife vote no and tell us that teachers are paid two much (requires a masters, or did), get two much time off , and you can't get rid of bad teachers, etc. etc.

You guys have a tuff job and I respect you all. But it's one of those don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining moments. The public image isn't working.

I wish everyone to acheive the American dream through individual acheivement.

Just my .02

Most of those driving around in the newest trucks are Capt or above in rank or have been a FF for many many years!! Just look a what the firefighters drive and then what the LT, Capt and above drive... Most have the new, nice stuff because their pay is a lot more then mine as a firefighter with just 8.5yrs in.

If a new firefighter drives a brand new truck, then he either knows how to manage money, single/no kids, wife makes good bank or is broke as shit!! Lol. Believe me, I've been there done that (broke as shit part)!

Also, most have 2nd jobs because we can and our schedule allows us to. I use to have a PT job, but after working 112hrs every 2 weeks the FD and then working 50-60hrs extra at my PT job, it got OLD quick!! I never had time for myself and my family. Some guys have to work PT jobs to pay for child support, or other things like the rest of us! It's life man, got to do what u can to make it!

Edited October 29, 2011 by fireman_343

[drc32-0]

I'm so glad that I'm in a union so I don't have to write one of those winey ass posts about what I don't have and expressing my petty jealousies about what others have.

It doesn't appear that your belief that if you work hard the non-union bosses will justly reward your efforts is working to good for you guys.

BTW,I'm not in a public union,but I damn sure will be voting no on issue two.I'd much rather give my taxes to the pensions of firefighters who face fires,cops who face armed crackheads and teacher who try to deal with the results of bad parenting,than giving another dime to the wall street banker that caused this whole economic mess and then hides behind his porkbarrel home security system.

Edited October 29, 2011 by drc32-0

[C-bus]

I'm so glad that I'm in a union so I don't have to write one of those winey ass posts about what I don't have and expressing my petty jealousies about what others have.

It doesn't appear that your belief that if you work hard the non-union bosses will justly reward your efforts is working to good for you guys.

Joke's on you. How much did you pay the pimp so that you could work today?

Edited October 29, 2011 by C-bus

[drc32-0]

Enough that I can still buy what I want and not cry about what others have.

[Sniper_308]

I'm so glad that I'm in a union so I don't have to write one of those winey ass posts about what I don't have and expressing my petty jealousies about what others have.

It doesn't appear that your belief that if you work hard the non-union bosses will justly reward your efforts is working to good for you guys.

BTW,I'm not in a public union,but I damn sure will be voting no on issue two.I'd much rather give my taxes to the pensions of firefighters who face fires,cops who face armed crackheads and teacher who try to deal with the results of bad parenting,than giving another dime to the wall street banker that caused this whole economic mess and then hides behind his porkbarrel home security system.

Someone buy this guy a beer.

[buildit]

It will be interesting to see if......

Issue 2 passes and public employees are still fired / laid off on mass

Issue 2 fails and public employees are still fired / laid off on mass

Most interesting is how Fire Fighters and Police are the ones fighting this the hardest when there are so many other public workers this will effect. Why isn't there an add with a street sweeper, waste water operator, tax collection accountant, EPA official, or social worker? Maybe because those people don't have any answer to the questions about the cost of the service? Police, fire fighters, teachers, nurses who have more public exposure are front and center. Yet they are also the services that no politician "wants" to cut because it effects voters directly! "Just something to think about".

[chevysoldier]

Issue 2 will make public employees pay into their healthcare and retirement instead of the tax payers, correct? If they have to pay their own, wouldn't the taxes that don't go to healthcare and retirement anymore be used to hire more police and firefighters, buy equipment, etc? Small reduction in take home pay = more jobs available right?

Taking away bargaining for safety equipment isn't even on the table from what I have read.

If SB5 stays in place, this will allow the worst teachers/FD/PD to be fired instead of just the low man on the totem pole correct?

Collective bargaining forces teachers of the year to be laid off instead of the bad teachers. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/how-collective-bargaining-forced-milwaukee-fire-teacher-year_553779.html

[Disclaimer]

I'd take 1 good EMT/Firefighter for $80k a year over 2 shitty ones at 40k a year

[chevysoldier]

I'd take 1 good EMT/Firefighter for $80k a year over 2 shitty ones at 40k a year

But then the ones that are shitty get let go. They don't get kept because of seniority. Right?

[chevysoldier]

That what the newspapers from Ohio’s three largest cities found out when the looked past the rhetoric, and focused on the facts. The Cleveland Plain Dealer, the Columbus Dispatch, and the Cincinnati Enquirer all agree. Ohioans should vote YES on Issue 2. And what they say pretty much mirrors what we have been telling you.

Some key quotes from The Plain Dealer:

Ohio law must not impede reform, and it won’t if it creates a level playing field for public-sector workers and their employers.

Right now, that field is tipped in favor of the unions. Recognizing that reality does not mean we oppose public-employee unions or that we do not appreciate what their members do and the sacrifices some already have made…

In schools, the emphasis has to be on the progress of children, not the comfort of adults. In city halls and county offices, the impact on those who pay the bills — and the sheer magnitude of those bills — must be paramount.

Rules that made sense in 1983 do not make sense anymore. Ohio needs a fresh start…

When they mark their ballots, Ohioans cannot worry about what is best for any political party or interest group — on either side of this debate. They need to consider what’s best for the future of their children, their communities, their state.

They need to pass Issue 2.

The Columbus Dispatch looked at the facts honestly, and they concluded:

Elected officials should be in control of public expenditures. For the nearly three decades since the advent of Ohio’s extremely lopsided collective-bargaining law, elected officials have had too little control over the overwhelming majority of their budgets: salaries and benefits for public employees. That was always poor public policy, but in better economic times, it was sustainable. It isn’t anymore…

The claims of the anti-Issue 2 campaign have been intellectually dishonest. Chief among them is the suggestion that, with some bargaining-table leverage restored to them, state agencies and local governments instantly will begin slashing positions for firefighters and police and stop buying the equipment needed to keep the public safe. What possible motivation would a politician have for decimating safety services?

In fact, the opposite is more likely. With more ability to control the escalation of salary and benefit costs, governments won’t be forced as often to impose layoffs, and might be able to afford to keep even more police and firefighters on the streets.

And most recently, The Cincinnati Enquirer put aside the nastiness of this entire campaign and looked at what Senate Bill 5 does for Ohioans.

For decades, Ohio has been on an unsustainable path of rapidly increasing public-sector benefits. SB 5 would give the people we choose to manage our money, our safety and our schools greater flexibility in benefits and work rules for public employees, bringing them closer in line with what comparable workers receive in the private sector. That could relieve the pressure to raise taxes and thus help, not hurt, middle-class Ohioans…

So we urge a “yes” vote on Issue 2.

If Issue 2 fails, the political climate may make it impossible to enact reforms for years to come, putting Ohio further behind the curve. We can’t let that happen. Vote “yes” on Issue 2.

http://biggovernment.com/bytor/2011/10/31/major-ohio-newspapers-look-past-union-hysterics-endorse-issue-2-reforms/

[drew95gt]

Issue 2 will make public employees pay into their healthcare and retirement instead of the tax payers, correct? If they have to pay their own, wouldn't the taxes that don't go to healthcare and retirement anymore be used to hire more police and firefighters, buy equipment, etc? Small reduction in take home pay = more jobs available right?

Taking away bargaining for safety equipment isn't even on the table from what I have read.

If SB5 stays in place, this will allow the worst teachers/FD/PD to be fired instead of just the low man on the totem pole correct?

Collective bargaining forces teachers of the year to be laid off instead of the bad teachers. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/how-collective-bargaining-forced-milwaukee-fire-teacher-year_553779.html

I do pay into my retirement/health insurance and I am a public employee...Respiratory Therapist at a county hospital to be exact. Politicians are NOT going to be hurt by this bill, it is going after the middle class public workers. Quite honestly the benefits are the main reason to stay in a public sector job. I would make a lot more if I worked for a private hospital...just wouldn't have as good of retirement/benefits.

Edited November 4, 2011 by drew95gt