BDBGoalie Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 I'll have to look that up then. It was explained differently in my CCW class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted April 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Self Defense is an Affirmative Defense ("Yes I did it but here is my justification...")It CAN be argued in front of a judge, but a prosecutor would be wasting everyone's time taking a case to trial when it is clearly a valid self-defense case. In this case the prosecutor believes the family's version of events 100%, stating that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation that resulted in the shooting. If they truly believe that they they are duty-bound to take it to trial. Zimmerman would have to show that any confrontation he initiated was ended and that a second confrontation was started by Martin at a time and/or place that was sufficiently removed from the first confrontation that a reasonable person would have had the opportunity to calm down and depart. The standard of evidence is different for an Affirmative Defense - it is by preponderance of the evidence (It was probably self-defense) rather than beyond reasonable doubt (No reasonable person would disagree).Without a doubt, this trial will hinge on the "second confrontation" theory. Was there only one confrontation or two? Who was the first to use or threaten violence? I can walk up to anyone I want to and start talking to them. I can follow them around all day long as long as I stay in places I am allowed to be. Following someone does not justify them using violence against me - so the prosecution will have to show that Zimmerman not only followed Martin but actually put Martin in enough fear of his own safety that Martin was justified in using self defense against Zimmerman. Some argue that that Zimmerman following Martin disqualifies Zimmerman from self defense (during the encounter that resulted from being followed). Some also that the same goes for Martin - if there WAS a second confrontation where Martin turned around and followed Zimmerman then Zimmerman is the victim and Martin can no longer claim self-defense. Both these theories are flawed in that they assume following someone justifies violence. There has to be a threat or use of violence to justify self-defense. Did Zimmerman "run after Martin with a gun in hand" as widely assumed by people not connected with the case? That would certainly be a threat that would put Zimmerman as aggressor and Martin as victim. Did Zimmerman simply follow Martin and Martin overreacted, sought out Zimmerman down after Zimmerman left the area, then attacked Zimmerman with no additional provocation? Was there only one confrontation but Martin overreacted to being followed by using violence?All this will come out in the trial.I *do* have a problem with those folks who argue that trials should be used in place of investigations. The investigation is supposed to determine if a trial is warranted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad324 Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 did you know that the Keltec PF9 is the most racist thinking gun on the market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Actually that is not true in self-defense cases. You are guilty because you already confirmed you killed someone. The burden then falls on you to prove the reason you did it was in justifiable self defense.Of course in my opinion I think Zimmerman went way overboard in regards to following in his vehicle and on foot. But I think the kid picked the fight. So Zimmerman may have been wrong for starting the situation, but once he was attacked the use of the weapon to defend himself was justified. (Especially since the "kid" wasn't the 14 year old Fox loves to show on TV, but a much more grown up person) He should catch a charge for involuntary manslaughter, definately not murder.Well, if your gunna base this off looks Zimmerman looks like a gangbanger and looks like he would be able to hold his own in a fight, not the defenseless pussy people on his side are making him out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crb Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 did you know that the Keltec PF9 is the most racist thinking gun on the market?All guns owners are racist, we all have a racist movie in our head! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0cZ3BnbcuQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swingset Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 did you know that the Keltec PF9 is the most racist thinking gun on the market?Mine hates brown people. I'm using sun screen this summer, just to keep myself safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 michael moore is a fucking idiot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crb Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) Right wing news network has released a new photo! "Right wing" http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16177849 Edited April 20, 2012 by crb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted April 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Zimmerman got bond. $150k. He's still in jail now while they finalize the details of the bond that would have GPS monitoring of his location, but may allow him to be outside of Florida for his safety.RE: Injury photo... I wonder how the Martin family attorney will respond to that - they had already stated that the lack of visible injury in the police booking cctv video was proof that he was not attacked. If this image is as is purports to be then will they have to concede that Zimmerman was attacked by Martin? (Of course these injuries could be a result of Martin being attacked first and defending him self successfully.What is extremely telling are these two quotes:O'Mara asked whether Gilbreath knows who started the fight between Zimmerman and Martin, or had any evidence as to who started the fight. Gilbreath said no.O'Mara (Z Attorney) asked whether Gilbreath (State Investigator) had any evidence contradicting Zimmerman's statement to Sanford police on the night of the incident that Zimmerman: 1) turned toward his car after losing sight of Martin; and 2) that Martin started the fight that led to the shooting. Gilbreath said no.and The prosecutor asked Gilbreath whether there was any evidence indicating that Zimmerman's account that Martin bashed his head against a sidewalk wasn't true. Gilbreath said yesAgain - if there was an injury then there will be police photographs that the court will trust. The picture included above could be of anyone. If there ARE *proven* injuries then the only way the prosecution could have evidence that indicates Martin did not slam Zimmermans' head into the ground would be to assert that the injuries were from something else - such as self-inflicted injuries as part of an attempted cover-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted April 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Right wing news network has released a new photo! "Right wing" http://abcnews.go.com/story?id=16177849Hmmm... Compare that pic with the "enhanced" cctv images showing what the video enhancer claims was contusions on Zimmerman's head.Is this the same person with the same injuries?If so, then things are looking very dicey for the prosecution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad324 Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 I don't want to live in this world anymore http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9VINDNg0t8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crb Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Zimmerman got bond. $150k. He's still in jail now while they finalize the details of the bond that would have GPS monitoring of his location, but may allow him to be outside of Florida for his safety.RE: Injury photo... I wonder how the Martin family attorney will respond to that - they had already stated that the lack of visible injury in the police booking cctv video was proof that he was not attacked. If this image is as is purports to be then will they have to concede that Zimmerman was attacked by Martin? (Of course these injuries could be a result of Martin being attacked first and defending him self successfully.What is extremely telling are these two quotes:and Again - if there was an injury then there will be police photographs that the court will trust. The picture included above could be of anyone. If there ARE *proven* injuries then the only way the prosecution could have evidence that indicates Martin did not slam Zimmermans' head into the ground would be to assert that the injuries were from something else - such as self-inflicted injuries as part of an attempted cover-up.Good points. I believe the Martin family attorney commented on the photo. I'm not surprised he got bail. I would be concerned with GPS monitoring. I would sit my butt in jail if I was him, I would be concerned someone would "acccidently" leak his whereabouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheech Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Hmmm... Compare that pic with the "enhanced" cctv images showing what the video enhancer claims was contusions on Zimmerman's head.Is this the same person with the same injuries?If so, then things are looking very dicey for the prosecution.Media of any stripe have proven themselves utterly incapable of covering this impartially and objectively, therefore I'm not paying any attention to anything they are saying short of "this happened in the Zimmerman trial today". Media enhancements, image and audio manipulations, all that have more or less proved themselves to be completely full of shit, even moreso the bloviating heads that incessantly feel the need to comment on the smallest minutiae detail for the next 24 hours. Facts will come out at the trial, everything else is just bullshit hearsay and wild speculation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Media of any stripe have proven themselves utterly incapable of covering this impartially and objectively, therefore I'm not paying any attention to anything they are saying short of "this happened in the Zimmerman trial today". Media enhancements, image and audio manipulations, all that have more or less proved themselves to be completely full of shit, even moreso the bloviating heads that incessantly feel the need to comment on the smallest minutiae detail for the next 24 hours. Facts will come out at the trial, everything else is just bullshit hearsay and wild speculation.:plus1: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 I don't want to live in this world anymore We Are Trayvon [LYRICS] - PLIES - [Tribute To Trayvon] FULL SONG *NEW* Lyric Video - YouTubeThis reminds me of the movie.derailed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 I hope that Zimmerman gets acquitted for so many reasons! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crb Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 I hope that Zimmerman gets acquitted for so many reasons!I'm waiting on a mistrial personally. Good luck finding an impartial jury, especially one that hasn't heard the edited 911 tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted April 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 I'm hoping that the right decision is made. I haven't made up my mind on if he's innocent or guilty.I will say, though, that the investigator saying they don't know who started the fight is huge. They are going to try to convince a jury that Zimmerman is responsible for the violent confrontation yet they are on record as saying they don't know if Zimmerman started it. What are they going to tell the jury then?If they are basing their 2nd degree murder charge on the fact that Zimmerman followed Martin to talk to him then they are smoking crack. Verbal confrontations don't justify a violent response. They need to identify who started the fight. But they don't know who started the fight.I've been a fence-sitter since day one, but I'm struggling to see how the prosecution will meet its burden of proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 I'm hoping that the right decision is made. I haven't made up my mind on if he's innocent or guilty.I will say, though, that the investigator saying they don't know who started the fight is huge. They are going to try to convince a jury that Zimmerman is responsible for the violent confrontation yet they are on record as saying they don't know if Zimmerman started it. What are they going to tell the jury then?If they are basing their 2nd degree murder charge on the fact that Zimmerman followed Martin to talk to him then they are smoking crack. Verbal confrontations don't justify a violent response. They need to identify who started the fight. But they don't know who started the fight.I've been a fence-sitter since day one, but I'm struggling to see how the prosecution will meet its burden of proof.If he cant prove he was in a fight, then they might not need to prove who started the fight those injuries could of been self inflected for all we know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crb Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 If he cant prove he was in a fight, then they might not need to prove who started the fight those injuries could of been self inflected for all we know.And marrtin could have shot himself with zimmermans gun. Maybe zimmerman was struggling to get the gun back so Martin didn't commit suicide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 And marrtin could have shot himself with zimmermans gun. Maybe zimmerman was struggling to get the gun back so Martin didn't commit suicide. Maybe I know I like killing myself with other peoples guns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swingset Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 I've been a fence-sitter since day one, but I'm struggling to see how the prosecution will meet its burden of proof.I think they're swinging for the fence, hoping for pure emotional votes from the jury.Could it happen?OJ walked free from a slam-dunk trial, anything can happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crb Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 This isn't even close to a slam dunk trial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted April 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 This isn't even close to a slam dunk trial.I don't hink he's saying it is - I think he's saying that you simply cannot predict any case for sure.OJ went free because the investigation was botched. And they told the jury that "the killer wore *these* gloves" - but the gloves didn't fit OJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad324 Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 OJ didn't do it. His kid did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.