back to the basics

[Exarch]

[blue03636]

new mirror and bar, should be good to go.

[snot]

Glad your ok. Hopefully you find the time to take the mfs, I learned a lot from that class.

[Exarch]

new mirror and bar, should be good to go.

Yup, vista Kawasaki should have my mirror and clip ons tomorrow or Thursday they said. If they come in early enough I can pick em up inbetween jobs and slap em on Friday morning.

[Exarch]

Glad your ok. Hopefully you find the time to take the mfs, I learned a lot from that class.

Thanks, ya im gunna try and work something out. Its gunna be a tight fit though trying to cram it into my busy schedule between NCR and DPL.

[snot]

With so many here who has taken it maybe you should get some tips in an empty lot. I went to the piqua mall parking lot to get familar with mith my bikes. I had a scare the first time I went out with a group ( I was nervous) we were at a stop on a hill turning left (big hill on left) stalled the first attempt over throttled the second. Grabbed clutch and brake to stop. No harm nothing damaged. I remembered the tips I got in class and started to learn how to give it the proper throttle.

[Exarch]

I was gunna do that with a couple guys from here, but ended up going to.the.zoo with.the.fam.instead. Once.me and the other guy get some free time on the same day were gunna hit up a parking lot.

[snot]

Another thought... have you checked the tips on your bike on ninjette? There are some tips on the shifting on our small bikes. You might find spare parts there too.

[blue03636]

Just make sure to ask as many questions as you can. You can never get too much info.

[Exarch]

Another thought... have you checked the tips on your bike on ninjette? There are some tips on the shifting on our small bikes. You might find spare parts there too.

Nope, I will though. I could of got my parts cheaper, sure, but I would have to wait longer I wanted to make the bike road worthy asap.

[Exarch]

Just make sure to ask as many questions as you can. You can never get too much info.

Sure you can, brain overload I find it best(for me atleast) to learn in small steps rather.than try to cram everything in at 1 time.

Some reason, idk why.... Computers are the only thing my brain soaks up like a sponge, everything else has a memory leak and hard cap for processing...

[blue03636]

Well then ask the ones that pop into your head and you think will be a dumb question. Chances are those are the ones that might save you ass one of these days.

[Exarch]

Well then ask the ones that pop into your head and you think will be a dumb question. Chances are those are the ones that might save you ass one of these days.

Thats the plan

[ReconRat]

Big guard rail is a basic sign that things don't go well for people in that turn.

1. reducing radius turn

2. breaking downhill

3. unknown road surface

Approach unknown turns on the high side of the turn, slowing until you see the correct line out through the corner. Looking THROUGH the corner, as in looking at the exit.

That prevents going in too hot, which won't work with the road working against you.

After you know the turn, you can go through faster.

I've seen downhill reducing radius hairpin turns that put so much pucker in me the first time through, I just about stopped to look at it. But as soon as you see that line out to the exit of the turn, everything is fine.

I think you're lacking that pucker factor on approach, let it work for you.

Getting that feeling after entering a turn won't work out too well.

You are in control of the bike, not the other way around.

Motorcycles have a steep learning curve. Lots of different techniques, and knowing as many as possible is good. Instinct will take over with experience. But experience must come carefully. Never just "follow" bikes through turns, all the decisions must be yours.

[Exarch]

Big guard rail is a basic sign that things don't go well for people in that turn.

1. reducing radius turn

2. breaking downhill

3. unknown road surface

Approach unknown turns on the high side of the turn, slowing until you see the correct line out through the corner. Looking THROUGH the corner, as in looking at the exit.

That prevents going in too hot, which won't work with the road working against you.

After you know the turn, you can go through faster.

I've seen downhill reducing radius hairpin turns that put so much pucker in me the first time through, I just about stopped to look at it. But as soon as you see that line out to the exit of the turn, everything is fine.

I think you're lacking that pucker factor on approach, let it work for you.

Getting that feeling after entering a turn won't work out too well.

You are in control of the bike, not the other way around.

Motorcycles have a steep learning curve. Lots of different techniques, and knowing as many as possible is good. Instinct will take over with experience. But experience must come carefully. Never just "follow" bikes through turns, all the decisions must be yours.

Well that pretty much sums up my thought process on that turn perfectly

[Moto-Brian]

I may have hit some debre idk, I didnt bother checking the road where I slid, but all the other bikes made it through no problem(they made it look easy) so im not 100% sure why I slid in the first place and the only thing i.can think of was 10mph in 5th gear could of caused a slip(cuz I know if you take a turn in the wrong gear in a car you lose quite a bit of traction)

I'm not going to rehash here, but at 10 mph and now you saying you were in 5th gear, you lost the front from too much brake. You were unsure and most likely tucked the front. You DO NOT spin up and lose the rear at 10mph lugged in 5th.

Again, take a freakin course, man. You shouldn't have been anywhere near 5th gear on a Kaw 250 doing 10mph. And trust me, to get the rear to spin even on gravel at 10 mph in 5th is near impossible without slipping the shit out of the clutch. I don't think I could even get a dirt bike to do that in loose dirt.

You lost the front.

[Moto-Brian]

If you were in 5th going 10mph, you could have stalled the engine, which would lock the rear wheel. In a turn, that's almost a guaranteed crash.

This is a possibility also, but I would think he would have mentioned the bike stalled. It would have made a chug and quit.

The picture helps a ton. One, he crashed on the right side. He said he slid. I do not know how you lean left at 10 mph in a turn that can handle more in 5th gear lugging the motor and you slide on the right side. I just am baffled at the right side deal at 10 mph!

He didn't highside (don't think you can at 10 mph), he didn't crash hard from the pics so, what did happen???

[Exarch]

I didnt say my rear tire spun I said it slipped(didnt grip the ground) same way you slip a car when your in too high of.a.gear making a turn, the tires dont spin, but you slip and go wider than you want to. I could be using the wrong.terminology(correct me on this if.i.am please) ive drive a stick long enough to realize im in the wrong gear when I punch the gas. I know im new to.riding a bike, but the concept is.the same in a car. 25mph sharp left in 3rd gear your not.gunna get the tractin/grip you need to make the turn(its gunna be ride) same 25mph sharp turn in 2nd gear when u punch the gas your tires are going to stick and sling you around the corner as you intended it to do.

[Moto-Brian]

I know what a klr is I asked you for advice a few weeks ago when I was thinking of buying one. Your comparing a dirt bike which is also designed to corner super well to a bike that's a few steps away from being a scooter. The track video I doubt the guy was running a hard compound tire designed for commuting like the tire found on the ninja 250. I could corner great on a cruiser or sport bike but on the cruiser it was no where near as easy or fast as on my cbr. Now I'm on a klx450 and I can't corner it nearly as well as the cbr. The cbr was simple to learn great cornering on. The klx is was different not that it can't be done but I doubt ill ever be able to corner the klx the same as the cbr. Especially with out the softer tires on it. Yes experience has a lot to do with it but the bike your on determines its limits. My main point I was trying to make was you had a rider with basically 0 experience riding with a rider with more experience. The more experienced rider was on a bike built to race and the less experienced rider on a bike that is designed to introduce a person to riding or for use as a fuel efficient vehicle. You can't expect both to be able to do the same things. Put a rider with a decent amount of experience on these two bikes and i'd put my money on their cornering (the rider) will be better on the cbr. There is no way the tire on the 250 will stick the same as on the cbr rr. So you can push the cbr a lot harder than the 250 ninja. Yes YOU may be able to out corner several people on sport bikes while on a dirt machine. But can you honestly say that if you were on a sportbike it would corner the same as your Dl? When comparing things you need a constant or a control if comparing 2 riders to get an accurate comparison they'd need the same bike. If comparing 2 bikes you would need an equally skilled rider or the same rider. Otherwise its an apples to oranges comparison.

Honestly, the 250 can corner exceptionally well. In fact, that turn, no bike is going to have a real advantage. It's not a turn where you are going to be able to rail so much faster on a 600 that is heavier, will be at a higher terminal velocity in approach and needing much more braking to get slowed, etc.

The idea is that lighter bikes like the 250 will actually be able to carry higher corner speed in that type of turn than even a 600 RR as you mention.

Take a Moto GP 125. Even skinnier tires than the 250 Ninja has. will rail through a corner as fast or in most cases, faster than a 600 in almost any given turn. Light, high corner speed.

The dirtbike deal is silly in of itself. Same ability rider will go faster on the Ninja vs the knobby bike if taking the corner the same way on each.

I can show you a guy that can rail a scooter through a turn faster than a guy on a liter bike. Ability can make some people look terrible... Point is that what you guys are arguing is moot.

Ninja is a great handling bike. The tires are perfectly fine at a set speed. Will they fail at certain corner speeds? Sure. But that bike can corner like on rails and a lot higher corner speed through something like that turn than a CBR 600 would. And certainly faster than a KLR that is as heavy as a tank.

[Moto-Brian]

I didnt say my rear tire spun I said it slipped(didnt grip the ground) same way you slip a car when your in too high of.a.gear making a turn, the tires dont spin, but you slip and go wider than you want to. I could be using the wrong.terminology(correct me on this if.i.am please) ive drive a stick long enough to realize im in the wrong gear when I punch the gas. I know im new to.riding a bike, but the concept is.the same in a car. 25mph sharp left in 3rd gear your not.gunna get the tractin/grip you need to make the turn(its gunna be ride) same 25mph sharp turn in 2nd gear when u punch the gas your tires are going to stick and sling you around the corner as you intended it to do.

Dude, you don't get it. The gear you were in at 10 mph doesn't allow for slipping. There is not enough power under the load you are giving the bike. The motor at 10 mph in 5th gear is at such a low rpm that you could literally grab and twist the throttle to the stop and it will most likely bog so badly and damn near stall that it will not slip.

You don't "slip" the rear and fall. You can spin the rear, grab traction and get spit off. That happens. You crashed WAY early according to the pic. That tells me you panic and grab brakes and lost it.

No offense, but you telling me how to take a turn is somewhat funny...

25 mph turn on your bike in 3rd vs 2nd is minimal. The thing you are not understanding about your bike is the revs and getting the most out of that motor. The rpms need to be higher to get the power to the ground on a 250. Their redline is SUPER high and they run like sewing machines. At 25 mph and "traction" as you call it is going to be the same in both gears. How you handle the bike dictates how you apply that power and thus, the "traction" as you call it. You ham fist it in 2nd gear and do it wrong, you can spin the rear. You do it smooth, you can apply load and have good traction coming out on exit.

If you shift up to 3rd, you can get the same traction, just will have to apply throttle and less brake and carry a higher corner speed. See what I mean? I can obtain the same level of traction and even possibly more at a higher gear. But, not in 5th. You lug the motor, you fail to apply efficient power to the rear wheel. Doesn't matter what you did, traction was traction. You couldn't have lost it on the rear with those elements...

Either way, you don't understand how it is supposed to work. You need a class. You need to make time for a class or you are going to be a statistic. You arguing on "traction" is a sign that you need to get educated and understand how these things work. They are not cars, trucks, snowmobiles, etc. The gyroscopic effect of a motorcycle make it nothing like you already know.

I'm not being mean to you, but I am getting a bit tired of reading the ill-educated responses. GET EDUCATED! Saturday. If you love your family, take a class and do something with them at a later date. Again, tough to have fun with the family while in a coma or on life support.

[mello dude]

^^^^^ Ditto!!

[cOoTeR]

Honestly, the 250 can corner exceptionally well. In fact, that turn, no bike is going to have a real advantage. It's not a turn where you are going to be able to rail so much faster on a 600 that is heavier, will be at a higher terminal velocity in approach and needing much more braking to get slowed, etc.

The idea is that lighter bikes like the 250 will actually be able to carry higher corner speed in that type of turn than even a 600 RR as you mention.

Take a Moto GP 125. Even skinnier tires than the 250 Ninja has. will rail through a corner as fast or in most cases, faster than a 600 in almost any given turn. Light, high corner speed.

The dirtbike deal is silly in of itself. Same ability rider will go faster on the Ninja vs the knobby bike if taking the corner the same way on each.

I can show you a guy that can rail a scooter through a turn faster than a guy on a liter bike. Ability can make some people look terrible... Point is that what you guys are arguing is moot.

Ninja is a great handling bike. The tires are perfectly fine at a set speed. Will they fail at certain corner speeds? Sure. But that bike can corner like on rails and a lot higher corner speed through something like that turn than a CBR 600 would. And certainly faster than a KLR that is as heavy as a tank.

This was my original statement that started the debate above. The biggest point was the last line. Check out what I stated in the parentheses in the first line.

You need to learn to match engine and tire speed (proper shifting).

As far as the other bikes making it look easy ( I don't think it applies here so much but for the future) your bike isn't really a sport bike. Not trying to be mean but as far as handling goes especially with stock tires it won't stick like a ninja 600 or cbr. I don't know what the suspension on your bike is like but I would guess its slightly lacking. So don't base yours and your bikes abilities off of what other people can do.

The tires on the ninja 250 are a hard compound made for durability the tires on the GP125's are race tires made to stick and have better traction. If tires don't matter why do guys who ride hard spend the money on q2's when avons are so much cheaper. What a person can do on a bike is based on their abilities and the capabilities of the machine. With his abilities + his machine he won't be able to do what an intermediate rider can do on a superior machine. I never said that no rider could out perform someone while on a lesser machine. Are you saying that the same rider can corner equally as well on the ninja 250 with hard tires as a a cbr with a good set of tires? If you ran a ninja 250 down the straight at mid-ohio would you enter the shicane (how ever you spell it) / s curve at the same speed as on a cbr if the both had the tires recommended from the factory? I'm not talking about the speed of the bikes on the straight but after braking.

[Exarch]

I know I obviously havent got all the factors down, never claimed to. I know its not a car, but thats the only way I can explain what I felt happen. I know I need msf/brc, but I also need money for rent/food/gas/bills its not the price of the class that matters to me. $25 is pocket change compared to the $320 I lose for taking the time off work and I support a family of 4 all by myself. Ya I know what your gunna say to that comment... I have to do what I have to do and cant always do what I want to do. im trying to.work it out to fit in a time/date to do my classes, but its hard when you work all day every day and im not even sure how my sats are gunna pan out right now. I told my boss im not working sat/sun anymore unless im pulling a double shift. He is gunna continue to double me on Sundays and he was thinking about giving me sats.off instead of having.me double on sats from now on cuz I was only working a norm shift on Saturday, which isnt even worth my time. So once I find out if im gunna be working sats or not ill be able to do some scheduling for my classes

[Helmutt]

Props to ya Exarch for being the man of the house and working hard for the livelyhood of your family - I rep ya for that integrity alone.

You definitely need some schooling on physics pros/cons with your bike, so try to make that a priority soon so you can gain valuable skills to keep you safe - it will pay you back 2fold on your insurance premiums so its a win win.

From what I see in the map pic of your crash site, I'd wager you fixated on the oncoming guardrail and panic stomped the rear brake making your bike slide out to the left and putting you down on your right side - only thing that makes sense to me since you rightsided a left turn? Just go easy this season and like you said, take the lucky lesson as a whole and continue to learn from it man. The season is just beginning so you have plenty of time to skill-build all year! Low speed maneuvering in an empty parking lot will help you understand YOUR bike's capabilities and the more you do it, the better you'll do it

[Moto-Brian]

This was my original statement that started the debate above. The biggest point was the last line. Check out what I stated in the parentheses in the first line.

The tires on the ninja 250 are a hard compound made for durability the tires on the GP125's are race tires made to stick and have better traction. If tires don't matter why do guys who ride hard spend the money on q2's when avons are so much cheaper. What a person can do on a bike is based on their abilities and the capabilities of the machine. With his abilities + his machine he won't be able to do what an intermediate rider can do on a superior machine. I never said that no rider could out perform someone while on a lesser machine. Are you saying that the same rider can corner equally as well on the ninja 250 with hard tires as a a cbr with a good set of tires? If you ran a ninja 250 down the straight at mid-ohio would you enter the shicane (how ever you spell it) / s curve at the same speed as on a cbr if the both had the tires recommended from the factory? I'm not talking about the speed of the bikes on the straight but after braking.

The tires on the Ninja are just as capable as the tires on a CBR. Now, you are saying the Ninja has shit tires and the CBR has good tires. The Ninja is capable of a higher corner speed. Limited by the tires if you say, the light weight and cornerspeed capacity will at worse, equal the CBR.

The Keyhole example I think you are using is a good example. The Ninja doesn't have to let off and settle into the turn and use throttle modulation to adjust line and needle through the series of turns. At the top of the keyhole, the Nonja's corner speed is amazing. It again isn't having to use throttle modulation to maintain the line and speed.

The 600 is heavier. I've ridden everything from RC8R to Ninja 250s to Super Dukes on OEM tires around Mid-Ohio. Even a 600... I can tell you that it takes a little mind wrapping to get the idea that you can carry more corner speed on the 250. Reason being, off a liter bike through those series of turns and you aren't carrying as much corner speed at the smaller bikes.

Why do you think a 600 can run a faster lap than a liter bike at tighter tracks? Same brand of tires, same rider...

Tires are tires. Bikes are bikes. The OEM stuff on both bikes have limits. But, the Ninja weighs a ton less. It has a lot less mass being tossed around. We are talking tight turn stuff. Dog legs and such, not so much. The little bikes weigh less, can carry higher corner speed. You don't let off as soon, you hammer the throttle sooner w/o upsetting the chassis, you can drive through the turn at apex at a higher rate of speed. On race tires or OEM tires.

Can I run a faster lap on the 600 vs the 250? Sure. But we are talking corner speed. Where the Ninja shines is in the tight technical stuff that is marginally, similar no matter what bike you ride. Where the bike suffers is drive out, straightline speed and overall average MPH on a bigger course.

Think of it this way. Would you go faster around the go kart track on a YSR with those old stock tires or a CBR 600 on current OEM sticky tires? Your answer should be the YSR...