Let's get practical about this whole mess

[jbot]

I don't know why this hasn't come up, but let's get a little practical: where do criminals get their guns?

A good chunk of the general populace who are uneducated and likely have never shot a gun, much less know how they even work, are screaming for gun control. I abhor the idea, I think it's misguided and I think a little education could go a long way... but massholes will be massholes, they will never bother to learn much about anything, and there is a good chance some stupid law will be passed due to pure ignorance.

So, since every time some ass clown shoots up a place, and many MANY of those times, the guns used were procured illegally, how do we stop that? I have no delusions that this conversation will go anywhere other than being forgotten in short time... but every time something awful happens, the public who don't know any better say "let's ban this/that gun! we'll be safer lol"

even if it's limited to our little group, what can we do to do our part to make sure the crazies and the proven criminals don't get access to our guns, or guns in general?

here is what i've found so far. much of this we already knew.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

http://www.showmasters.us/Portals/0/pdf/Firearms%20Use%20by%20Offenders.pdf

a discussion already had in 2011 at the firing line forum: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=458974

what do you think?

when you do your own search, you'll come across some truly atrocious BS on this topic. god bless the internets.

[speedytriple]

From what I have read and heard most are from straw sales or private sales to know felons. I.E. ghetto rat goes to his buddy, buddy buys gun sells to felon for a mark up. The other I have heard is about the same, a guy buys a gun legally then sells it later to a felon wether he knows it or not. Then there is the whole gun show loophole. I for one would not object to a free background check at gun shows to make sure dirt bags are not buying my gun. I due my check I.D. ask for a CHL and ask if they are a felon, but how do you really know?

[Pokey]

Martial Law on all the obvious known gangs out there, bring in the military and start exterminating members. No doubt that most guns being used in crimes are stolen and from straw sales, and I wonder how many actually get reported. What do criminals really have to worry about, if they don't get killed they will end up in prison with 3 hots and a cot and joining a gang there. If a prison/state has death row......kill the mother fuckers in a very timely manner, then say "NEXT". Of course allow every person the choice to carry, even the playing field and in no time the game will be pretty much over. There honestly wasn't the violence in the old West like many would believe, and there was no shortage of guns. Of course now we are overrun by criminals, thugs, gangs, etc.....because they are in charge. When they begin to fear the armed citizen, the tables will turn. I am all for vigilante style justice as well, we need some highly trained and "very well armed" bad asses, with the best instruments of death and stealth weaponry and gear out hunting the bad guys. Can you just imagine if there were funded black ops type commandos going out and killing the scum of the Earth here in the good ole USA, and they were funded by our tax dollars? Now that would be money well spent, and oh how quickly shit could change. Give them a list of names and locations, and let them clean up the vermin. To hell with all the protection we waste on foreign soil, let our Nation's finest do more domestic missions. Put the fear of imminent death in the bad guys minds, let them know that there is no where to run and no where to hide.....the Batmen are watching.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Pokey

[jbot]

From what I have read and heard most are from straw sales or private sales to know felons. I.E. ghetto rat goes to his buddy, buddy buys gun sells to felon for a mark up. The other I have heard is about the same, a guy buys a gun legally then sells it later to a felon wether he knows it or not. Then there is the whole gun show loophole. I for one would not object to a free background check at gun shows to make sure dirt bags are not buying my gun. I due my check I.D. ask for a CHL and ask if they are a felon, but how do you really know?

i object to mandated background checks (free or not), but i do think it would be nice to have fast, free, easy access to perform a background check (though not en masse, only on a one by one basis) where no record that the background check was done is retained.

Martial Law on all the obvious known gangs out there, bring in the military and start exterminating members. No doubt that most guns being used in crimes are stolen and from straw sales, and I wonder how many actually get reported. What do criminals really have to worry about, if they don't get killed they will end up in prison with 3 hots and a cot and joining a gang there. If a prison/state has death row......kill the mother fuckers in a very timely manner, then say "NEXT". Of course allow every person the choice to carry, even the playing field and in no time the game will be pretty much over. There honestly wasn't the violence in the old West like many would believe, and there was no shortage of guns. Of course now we are overrun by criminals, thugs, gangs, etc.....because they are in charge. When they begin to fear the armed citizen, the tables will turn. I am all for vigilante style justice as well, we need some highly trained and "very well armed" bad asses, with the best instruments of death and stealth weaponry and gear out hunting the bad guys. Can you just imagine if there were funded black ops type commandos going out and killing the scum of the Earth here in the good ole USA, and they were funded by our tax dollars? Now that would be money well spent, and oh how quickly shit could change. Give them a list of names and locations, and let them clean up the vermin. To hell with all the protection we waste on foreign soil, let our Nation's finest do more domestic missions. Put the fear of imminent death in the bad guys minds, let them know that there is no where to run and no where to hide.....the Batmen are watching.

it's an interesting idea, and i have many things i'd say in response to that, but i want to limit the conversation to "how do we limit illegal access to our guns".

also, i'd like to limit any statistics/data provided as "proof" to back a stance to be drawn from reasonably non-biased sources. i know it's hard to define what source is "non-biased" but i'd say any study performed directly by a government agency as being reasonably unbiased (I know that sounds dumb, but i think it's close enough). for example, ATF stats, FBI crime stats, etc.

Edited January 2, 2013 by jbot
corrections after double checking

[speedytriple]

I still stand with a free background check that everyone must use at gun shows. I know I will get flamed for saying that but it will help(not solve) the problem of straw sales.

[jbot]

I still stand with a free background check that everyone must use at gun shows. I know I will get flamed for saying that but it will help(not solve) the problem of straw sales.

i agree with you that making it available would be a nice option for those who want it, but i don't agree with regulating private party sales.

[speedytriple]

Would not be for private party sales as in face to face. I would suggest only gun show sales be regulated.

[speedytriple]

So if you want to come and buy my say "armslist","gunbroker" listed $3000 AR15 you would be fine. But if you want to go to the gun show and buy one from the guy in the parking lot you would be denied..But it would still not help with the sales of guns to felons much. I guess we should just kill all people with a felony conviction?(that might be the beer talking now)

[fazer1sniper]

This is all getting real depressing. The days of "private sales" may be over. I see the need for the background checks, yes. I still fear a "list of owners". History of that and all.

[Anden]

Title and insure.

Just as I am responsible for my car I should be responsible for my guns.

[imprez55]

Title and insure.

Just as I am responsible for my car I should be responsible for my guns.

Hell no! Quite frankly, that is insane, even more so than mandatory registration. Not only do you have to register, but then you can be charged anything to transfer ownership and to wait forever at the BMV or equivalent. It costs ~$30 a title plus taxes for vehicles (already too much for private sale) and I can bet you it would cost a lot more for guns (can you say "sin tax"). Insurance would be the same; absolutely extreme prices to insure which would further limit the market. What about NFA items like suppressors, SBR's and full auto's? That would be like trying to insure full race vehicles for the street.

[C-bus]

Freedom has its costs. A free society is not necessarily a safe society. We cannot stop mass shootings from happening just as we cannot stop rapes and murders. We can do our best to prepare for them, maybe even mitigate them through personal defense. Trusting the government with gun ownership records is a mistake. I simply understand and acknowledge that any guns that I have purchased through an FFL are presumed to be in my possession and one day, I will have to prove otherwise.

[jbot]

i cannot condone any new laws that mandate the following (and surely, i will forget some):

registration (sets up for enforceable confiscation)

adding expense

mandatory anything when it comes to private party sales (it's your property, you should be free to sell it in the manner you deem fit)

i do condone:

education

easily accessible background checks that are free to user (assuming no record is kept and verification for person being checked)

[Anden]

I'm not for it either. Just saying you want checks and balances something has got to give. Criminals don't give a fuck. But a law abiding citizen does. Hold me accountable for my gun and I will get god damned picky about who I sell it to. I would also want it known that I have passed the gun on.

[shittygsxr]

I have observed how felons get guns much less complicated than everyone thinks.

Step one. Get nasty fat white girlfriend

Step two. Go to Vance's pick out gun

Step three. Have the girlfriend fill out paperwork

[max power]

I have observed how felons get guns much less complicated than everyone thinks.

Step one. Get nasty fat white girlfriend

Step two. Go to Vance's pick out gun

Step three. Have the girlfriend fill out paperwork

^ this. Seen it many times myself. Like every time I go in Vance's.

[OsuMj]

Harvard Study WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE MURDER AND SUICIDE?

After reviewing a number of international and local statistics on gun ownership and murder rates, they conclude that there is simply no evidence that any form of gun control reduces murder rates. On the contrary, if you are simply to look at statistics, in general, less gun control seems to tend towards 'safer' societies, however, the trend is not predictable due to underlying variations in economy, culture, etc.

So what can we do? IMO, start working on fixing our economy and societal norms and start standing our ground against people who say more guns means more violent crime, but are unable to back that information up with factual information that pertains to more than a small demographic.

And, what IP said. I'm scared of all the people who took a 12 hr CCW course and think that qualifies them to carry a gun around in public. I hope that people who are considering themselves 'responsible gun owners' take it upon themselves to become skilled at using their guns and thinking about what they would do in different situations should they occur. We (the community supporting guns), need to be straight forward and demanding of those around us, and we need to speak up in a helpful, yet critical manner, when we see a gun owner who is not meeting expectations.

[r1crusher]

Here's the bottom line, there's little that anyone can do to keep felons from obtaining guns...period. Just as IP said previously.

How does someone get labeled a felon? THEY BREAK THE LAW AND GET CAUGHT! They (felons) don't care about laws or the consequences of breaking them in most cases. Why? Because the punishments are weak. Going to jail for them is like winning an all expenses paid vacation. They go in, sit on their asses, join gangs, eat, sleep, etc. Being incarcerated should not be so easy. But I digress, that's outside of jsquat's topic.

Setting up new regs. and laws do absolutely nothing as the individuals those things effect are already abiding by the laws already in place. Again, if laws mean nothing to the person nothing will change.

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

Lol at the tags.

[madcat6183]

Lol at the tags.

Didnt even notice the first run through, wow those are classic.

[AWW$HEEET]

someone at the gun show was saying it was illegal to perform face to face firearm sales, in public, in columbus. any truth to this? meaning you cant meet someone in a parking lot and make a sale, because it is illegal.

[C-bus]

someone at the gun show was saying it was illegal to perform face to face firearm sales, in public, in columbus. any truth to this? meaning you cant meet someone in a parking lot and make a sale, because it is illegal.

I've never heard of this.

[max power]

someone at the gun show was saying it was illegal to perform face to face firearm sales, in public, in columbus. any truth to this? meaning you cant meet someone in a parking lot and make a sale, because it is illegal.

Bullshit.

[Scruit]

Well Regulated Militia = Well Trained Militia. Buying a gun and shooting a paper target 7 yards away is not being well regulated' date=' in my opinon. I don't support measures that force citizens to train, but I do support education and training for those that desire it.[/quote']

Why do you think that regulated = trained?

Regulated = subject to regulations. If we are to conclude that the militia = the people, then a well regulated militia means the the people, but subject to appropriate regulations.

I read the 2a as: "A populace subject to appropriate regulations being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

I interpret this as meaning that although an armed populace is necessary for freedom of the state and that some regulations are required, no regulations shall impact the right of the people overall to own arms. I see this as allowing felons, mental cases etc be barred on an individual basis from owning guns, but that the government cannot ban arms to the public as a whole.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Scruit

[Scruit]

someone at the gun show was saying it was illegal to perform face to face firearm sales, in public, in columbus. any truth to this? meaning you cant meet someone in a parking lot and make a sale, because it is illegal.

It may have been under an old city code, but Ohio has statewide preemption for years, so the firearms transfer permit is no longer valid.