Michael Brown shooting

[redkow97]

I disagree, if Tamir rice were 12 yr old "Joey Taylor" there is not a chance the police show up and blow him away within 2 seconds of arriving on scene.

 

 

 

I don't think that's a fair comparison unless Joey Taylor lives in the same neighborhood. 

[magley64]

Based on stats or the news?

Oh the stats are alarming, for teens, you're way more likely to be shot and killed by police, over 20x more likely according to some of the data collected.

[cOoTeR]

I disagree, if Tamir rice were 12 yr old "Joey Taylor" there is not a chance the police show up and blow him away within 2 seconds of arriving on scene.

If he wasn't on the play ground with a toy gun that looked close enough to a real gun causing someone to call the cops he'd be alive. Why would race factor in? Are you saying if it were a black cop the kid would be alive? The assumption that the cops would have acted differently if the kid were white is absurd. Especially in today's day and age where kids are killing other kids at school. Do you have any example of a similar incident where it was a white kid doing the same thing and not getting shot?

[blue03636]

Oh the stats are alarming, for teens, you're way more likely to be shot and killed by police, over 20x more likely according to some of the data collected.

 

Not sure, all of the ones I have seen are somewhat incomplete as not all of police departments file the reports.

[cOoTeR]

Magz keeps going to the within seconds comment. A lot can happen in a matter of seconds. Watching the video out its horrible to try to get an idea of what happened. It's recording like a strobe light. Also is a good idea to listen to the 911 call. The guy says there's a guy at the park pointing a gun at people when they walk by scaring the shit out of them. That is beyond "playing" with a toy gun. That's threatening people with a toy gun. It's not like this kid was running around with other kids making bang noises with other kids. If you go into a bank and rob it with a toy gun or even imply that you have a gun you get gun charges on top of the bank robbery charges. For all these cops knew this guy was threatening people with a gun then didn't comply with their orders. They are going to keep themselves safe first. The actions the kid made instead of complying are why he got shot, not his race.

[Uncle Punk]

This kid, white or black, would have been shot by any other armed person, white or black.

 

If there is anyone carrying a gun for protection that wouldn't have drawn and shot this kid if he had threatened them with a gun I question what scenario would better suit their self preservation instincts.

 

I still maintain that this was suicide by cop or extreme profound ignorance with a justifiable predictable ending.

[magley64]

Magz keeps going to the within seconds comment. A lot can happen in a matter of seconds. Watching the video out its horrible to try to get an idea of what happened. It's recording like a strobe light. Also is a good idea to listen to the 911 call. The guy says there's a guy at the park pointing a gun at people when they walk by scaring the shit out of them. That is beyond "playing" with a toy gun. That's threatening people with a toy gun. It's not like this kid was running around with other kids making bang noises with other kids. If you go into a bank and rob it with a toy gun or even imply that you have a gun you get gun charges on top of the bank robbery charges. For all these cops knew this guy was threatening people with a gun then didn't comply with their orders. They are going to keep themselves safe first. The actions the kid made instead of complying are why he got shot, not his race.

The 911 call also said not once but twice the gun was probably fake. The officers shot this child despite the fact that there was nobody else around. (Nobody was in danger) These police fucked this up, shitty police acting on prejudice. I hope they get prison time, and I hope the asshole who hired them gets fired.

[Josh1234]

What are you basing that opinion on? That they should have indicted him.

 

The fact that he shot an unarmed man.  That, alone, is probable cause for an investigation/charges.

 

The 911 call also said not once but twice the gun was probably fake. The officers shot this child despite the fact that there was nobody else around. (Nobody was in danger) These police fucked this up, shitty police acting on prejudice. I hope they get prison time, and I hope the asshole who hired them gets fired.

 

What the 911 caller said doesn't matter when evaluating the police behavior, as they were NOT given the information that it was a BB gun.  As far as they know, they pulled up to someone who had been waving around a real gun.

[jbot]

cleveland police is hiring, btw.

[magley64]

The fact that he shot an unarmed man. That, alone, is probable cause for an investigation/charges.

What the 911 caller said doesn't matter when evaluating the police behavior, as they were NOT given the information that it was a BB gun. As far as they know, they pulled up to someone who had been waving around a real gun.

At 12, you don't show off your toys? I know I did.

12 yr olds should not be held to adult standards of behavior.

Edited December 8, 2014 by magley64

[madcat6183]

I had more toy guns than Toys R Us had when I was growing up.  I mean hundreds, some looked dang real too, I still remember a lot of them.  I never ONCE took any of them to a public place, in the car where I could play with them, or anything of that sort.  Parents would never have allowed that.  Never rode my bike with one, or had it out front of the house.  Toy guns were only allowed in the house and the back yard, that was it. 

 

They may have traveled with us, but they were always the ones that had orange tips on them, and usually were neon colored or looked nothing like a toy gun.

 

This all goes back to parenting, or lack there of and cops having to make a split second decision based on someone who may have had bad intent.  12 year olds DO kill people, actually a lot more often these days, and they DO shoot people on accident too.  So the cop had to make a decision, I support his decision, and I have a kid.  Parenting, it goes a long way.

[magley64]

They may have traveled with us, but they were always the ones that had orange tips on them, and usually were neon colored or looked nothing like a toy gun.

How many times does it need pointed out that the orange tip meant absolutely nothing in this case and means absolutely nothing in real life. There are fake black guns and real colorful ones. Even with orange tips.

So let's say his parents did forbid him from taking his toy gun to the park, does he deserve to die for disobeying their rule?

[Bubba]

Is it OK if I point out that you guys are debating the Cleveland shooting in the Michael Brown thread?  I agree that the kid (Tamir Rice) shouldn't have been shot for his actions shown on the video….Michael Brown, on the other hand, probably caused his own death.  I still say that the REAL trigger of what appears to be an overly quick shooting was as a direct result of the driver-cop's actions.  If he hadn't pulled up with his partner's door less than 10 feet from a reported 'kid with a gun' the shooter wouldn't have had to make a snap decision.  If the car had been stopped further back and angled in a position where the passenger door could have been used as a shield, there would have been additional time for the shooter to assess the situation and take a defensive position.  In this case, it appears to me both of the officers were incompetent….at best.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Bubba

[cOoTeR]

Is it OK if I point out that you guys are debating the Cleveland shooting in the Michael Brown thread? I agree that the kid (Tamir Rice) shouldn't have been shot for his actions shown on the video….Michael Brown, on the other hand, probably caused his own death. I still say that the REAL trigger of what appears to be an overly quick shooting was as a direct result of the driver-cop's actions. If he hadn't pulled up with his partner's door less than 10 feet from a reported 'kid with a gun' the shooter wouldn't have had to make a snap decision. If the car had been stopped further back and angled in a position where the passenger door could have been used as a shield, there would have been additional time for the shooter to assess the situation and take a defensive position. In this case, it appears to me both of the officers were incompetent….at best.

You're assuming that the cops knew he was there as they approached. It's very possible they were heading to swing set that the caller stated he was at in the 911 call when they saw him. Also a car door will not stop most rounds out of a firearm regardless of what you've seen in the movies. But if they saw the suspect and pulled right up to him I agree that was a bone head move.

The 911 call also said not once but twice the gun was probably fake. The officers shot this child despite the fact that there was nobody else around. (Nobody was in danger) These police fucked this up, shitty police acting on prejudice. I hope they get prison time, and I hope the asshole who hired them gets fired.

The call I heard said he didn't know if it was fake or not and he was across the parking lot. Furthermore you've stated that is impossible to quickly judge if a gun is fake or not. How do you know there was no one within shooting distance? So the cops should waitb until someone else is there before going in to find out what's going on? The cops were there because someone thought he possibly had a real gun based on the 911 caller. So they were also in danger and had reason to believe the kid had a gun. What facts do you have showing that the cop shot him because he was prejudice?

The fact that he shot an unarmed man. That, alone, is probable cause for an investigation/charges.

What the 911 caller said doesn't matter when evaluating the police behavior, as they were NOT given the information that it was a BB gun. As far as they know, they pulled up to someone who had been waving around a real gun.

Unarmed does not mean harmless especially when the subject is bigger than Brock Lesnar.

At 12, you don't show off your toys? I know I did.

12 yr olds should not be held to adult standards of behavior.

Pointing a gun at people walking by in a park is not showing off a new toy. It is threatening people with what appears to be a deadly weapon. Are you saying a 12 year old is less deadly with a weapon. Also I missed the part where the cops had a chance to get an ID from him to find out his age. Edited December 8, 2014 by cOoTeR

[Tigerpaw]

Is it OK if I point out that you guys are debating the Cleveland shooting in the Michael Brown thread?  I agree that the kid (Tamir Rice) shouldn't have been shot for his actions shown on the video….Michael Brown, on the other hand, probably caused his own death.  I still say that the REAL trigger of what appears to be an overly quick shooting was as a direct result of the driver-cop's actions.  If he hadn't pulled up with his partner's door less than 10 feet from a reported 'kid with a gun' the shooter wouldn't have had to make a snap decision.  If the car had been stopped further back and angled in a position where the passenger door could have been used as a shield, there would have been additional time for the shooter to assess the situation and take a defensive position.  In this case, it appears to me both of the officers were incompetent….at best.

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[magley64]

So the cops should waitb until someone else is there before going in to find out what's going on? The cops were there because someone thought he possibly had a real gun based on the 911 caller. So they were also in danger and had reason to believe the kid had a gun. What facts do you have showing that the cop shot him because he was prejudice?

No I'm saying the cops might try to figure out what is going on before killing a child. And I know the officer acted prejudicially because he shot and killed a child within 2 seconds of arriving on scene.

The officers never saw this child pointing anything at anybody, which is why the orange tip detail means exactly dick, they never saw the tip, it could have been a fucking fleshlight in his waist band for as much as they saw of it before executing him.

Edited December 8, 2014 by magley64

[cOoTeR]

No I'm saying the cops might try to figure out what is going on before killing a child. And I know the officer acted prejudicially because he shot and killed a child within 2 seconds of arriving on scene.

The officers never saw this child pointing anything at anybody, which is why the orange tip detail means exactly dick, they never saw the tip, it could have been a fucking fleshlight in his waist band for as much as they saw of it before executing him.

The cops were told the guy had a gun and he was pointing it at people. They don't need to see him doing it to reasonably believe he had a gun and was using it in an aggressive manner. It doesn't take 2 seconds to put your hands up and comply. It also doesn't take 2 seconds to draw a weapon and fire multiple rounds. Watching the video you can also see that the kid immediately starts heading towards the cop car at what appears to be a rapid speed. Which in anyone else's eyes especially the cops could be seen as an aggressive action. Your opinion is only that an opinion. The kid created the circumstances that lead to his death, not the cops. A couple things we do know from the video are the kid approached the cops and he didn't obviously did not have his hands up/away from the suspected weapon. We don't know what was said or if he was moving towards the suspected weapon. Being white or black does not change any of this. If a white kid acted the same it would most likely be the same result. Waiting for him to pull the suspected weapon out against what they told him to do could get them killed. Edited December 8, 2014 by cOoTeR

[magley64]

No I get it, I see them as 2 incompetent fuck holes who murdered a child with their itchy trigger fingers, you see them as 2 national heroes who saved hundreds of people in a park from a menacing black man.

[Bubba]

You're assuming that the cops knew he was there as they approached. It's very possible they were heading to swing set that the caller stated he was at in the 911 call when they saw him. Also a car door will not stop most rounds out of a firearm regardless of what you've seen in the movies. But if they saw the suspect and pulled right up to him I agree that was a bone head move.

 

Cooter:  I AM aware that a car door isn't bullet-proof, unless you're Bruce Willis….  ….although I'm pretty sure that a wooden dining table will stop military rounds from an automatic assault rifle.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't have wanted to be the poor cop sitting in the passenger seat--probably belted in--watching out the side window as the reported gun-wielding suspect started to move toward him.  I'll take a 25-40 foot separation with time to unbuckle and assume a shielded crouching position over that anytime.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Bubba

[magley64]

Also, why does the 12 year old child pay for his mistake with the rest of his life when the cops mistake isn't costing him a damn thing?

Itchy trigger finger cop should have to pay for his mistake. I doubt he ever will, but at absolute bare minimum he should lose his job and pay a hefty, hefty wrongful death settlement.

[Steve Butters]

Yes. Make him pay for shooting someone who was reportedly waving a gun around in a park and reaching into his waistband when cops showed up. Poor police work? Sure. Fired? I'd be OK with that. Racist murderers who premeditated the killing of an innocent black child who wanted to do nothing besides show off his toy to the cops? I know I'm breaking my own rule even responding to your troll ass, but whether you're trolling or serious, you're a fucking idiot. Don't want shot? Don't reach into your waistband when cops roll up on you after you've been threatening people in a park. It's not a hard fucking concept. This entire country is going down the fucking drain. Bad parenting, and stupid fucks running rampant will be our downfall. No accountability, blame everyone else, escalate bullshit into big issues that aren't even issues... It's a tragedy. Glad I don't plan on having kids. But if I did, they would be raised smart enough to not try and pull a gun on police officers.

[cOoTeR]

Cooter: I AM aware that a car door isn't bullet-proof, unless you're Bruce Willis…. ….although I'm pretty sure that a wooden dining table will stop military rounds from an automatic assault rifle.

On the other hand, I wouldn't have wanted to be the poor cop sitting in the passenger seat--probably belted in--watching out the side window as the reported gun-wielding suspect started to move toward him. I'll take a 25-40 foot separation with time to unbuckle and assume a shielded crouching position over that anytime.

I agree it's a shitty position to be in but I dont think that the cops intentionally pulled right up to the kid. Why would they do that on purpose? It seems more logical that they were rising in and looked over and saw him in a shit he's right there moment.

Also, why does the 12 year old child pay for his mistake with the rest of his life when the cops mistake isn't costing him a damn thing?

Itchy trigger finger cop should have to pay for his mistake. I doubt he ever will, but at absolute bare minimum he should lose his job and pay a hefty, hefty wrongful death settlement.

The trigger happy cop as you call him wouldn't have made a mistake as you see it if the kid did not lead people to believe he had a gun, caused enough concern to have someone call the cops, approached the cops when they arrived and disobeyed what the cops told him to do. The cop is obligated to respond and protect themselves. The kid chose his own fate simple as that. If I acted the same way I would expect to be shot also. Don't give me that crap that 12 isn't old enough to know better because of you don't know not to screw around with people holding guns at age 12 you probably can't function on your own.

Edited December 9, 2014 by cOoTeR

[magley64]

Don't give me that crap that 12 isn't old enough to know better because of you don't know not to screw around with people holding guns at age 12 you probably can't function on your own.

So 12 is "old enough to know better" in your opinion. How about if he were 10? 8? 5? Clearly there has to be a line. At what age does playing with a toy, even "irresponsibly" not cost you your life at the hands of those who are supposed to protect you?

[Gump]

Do we know if the dispatcher told the cops the caller mentioned the gun might be fake?

[Bubba]

I agree it's a shitty position to be in but I dont think that the cops intentionally pulled right up to the kid. Why would they do that on purpose? It seems more logical that they were rising in and looked over and saw him in a shit he's right there moment.

 

 

I guess that's pretty much my point.  If the kid HAD been a shooter intent on putting some bullets into a cop, one or both of the responders would have been dead before they got out of the car.  Just seems like a reckless and stupid move that screams incompetence on the part of the officers.  Of course, we're all analyzing this scenario with the wisdom of 20-20 hindsight….