What to look for in a ported TB? - no 56k!

[MrMeanGreen]

I have the opportunity to pick up either an MTI ported or Janzter ported throttlebody for my car. Both parties have sent pics, so I'll post them for your perusal.

 

What, exactly, am I looking for in a quality ported TB? The top pic is the MTI, the bottom the Jantzer.

 

Thanks smile.gif

 

http://www.columbusracinghosting.com/agreen/mtitb.jpg

http://www.columbusracinghosting.com/agreen/jantzertb.jpg

[RedRocket1647545505]

I'd go with the jantzer. The guy does some killer work. Plus, he offers some great color options. It's a ported throttle body...IMO, there's only so much engineering you can put into porting a throttle body. I'd say the Jantzer is probably cheaper too, no? MTI=everything's expensive.

[88lx5oh]

the jantzer seems to be a cleaner port. they actually went through and cleaned the porting down and looks like they semi polished it. which you could do to the MTI yourself if you like it better, but what exacty and the port specs?? did one get ported bigger than the other?? and what port size are you looking for?

[88lx5oh]

also like the above mentioned you can only port so much.. the TB will limit the amount of air travel. but knocking some of the obstructions out of the way to the blade makes air travel smoother. and are both sides of the TB ported on both TBs??

[Jay 2001 TA]

For quality purposes,Jantzer by far Anthony. Look at the way Jantzer has filled the holes for the sensors. It is much smother looking and the polishing job looks great. You can't see in the pic all that well but the Jantzer also files the t-body stop so you get a 100% throttle at WOT instead of 98%.

 

Get your order in ASAP though. As I recall (last year) Jantzer takes his sweet time getting the finished product back to you.

 

I actually ended up with a Shaner t-body last year and it worked out really well for me.

 

It looks like you might see a lot more HP gains from this t-body than a set of 2001 Chrome T/A rims

[Nitrousbird]

I'll just go ahead and assume these ported stockers are cheaper than just buying a bigger aftermarket TB.

[excell]

I agree, Janzter by far.

[MrMeanGreen]

The stock TBs are 75mm and these are ported stockers. The price difference between a ported stock and an aftermarket 80mm TB is about $300.

 

The Janzter looks really nicely done and smooth, but it looks like the bore may be smaller than the MTI (at least from the pics).

 

Basically, the MTI is $125 shipped and the Janzter is $95 shipped, so price isn't a factor.

[Nate1647545505]

A 75mm bore is good for well over 100hp/cyl, esp. in a blow through system.

 

save the $, and use it somewhere else.

[AngryBMW]

Originally posted by n8:

A 75mm bore is good for well over 100hp/cyl, esp. in a blow through system.

 

save the $, and use it somewhere else.

But then he doesnt get to add 'ported TB' to his mod list... tongue.gif

-Marc

[excell]

Originally posted by n8:

A 75mm bore is good for well over 100hp/cyl, esp. in a blow through system.

 

save the $, and use it somewhere else.

I disagree.

 

While the overall size of the throttle body may not need to be upgraded, the shape and air movement of the LS1 throttle body leaves something to be desired. While he will benefit from being able to force more air into the motor, his biggest gains will be from making the entering air much more efficient.

 

Shame on you Nate, you should know this very well. Our blowers work off of the same principal. Essentially, you are saying that you shouldn't change a stock supercharger on our motor because it will support 400HP. Yes, it will in stock form. But you know very well that good gains are had by having a ported blower installed. Efficient air is happy air, and you are only as good as your weakest link.

 

This is why I recommended the second throttle body. It is obvious to me that MUCH more care and attention was taken to improving the shape of the throttle body for the sake of efficiency, and not just hogging it out.

[Dave1647545494]

ok now you have a picture of what its supposed to look like get out your dremel and do it at home yourself and still save money....

 

its not like that car is going anywhere till like april anyway

[Jeffrey]

Any boosted car will see benefits from a better TB, for the reasons Chris explained. Whether it is being sucked through like on a GTP, or rammed in there like Anthony's Firebird.

 

Get the Jantzer Anthony!

[Guest 00Smurf]

I've decided on the Jantzer from the input received and because it's $30 cheaper smile.gif

 

I will have to transplant my sensors to it and grind the bumpstop down a bit to reach 4.77v at WOT, but no big deal.

 

Thanks for the input graemlins/nod.gif

 

<-- Anthony posting from Nic's.

[Nate1647545505]

Originally posted by Relegate:

I disagree.

 

While the overall size of the throttle body may not need to be upgraded, the shape and air movement of the LS1 throttle body leaves something to be desired. While he will benefit from being able to force more air into the motor, his biggest gains will be from making the entering air much more efficient.

 

Shame on you Nate, you should know this very well. Our blowers work off of the same principal. Essentially, you are saying that you shouldn't change a stock supercharger on our motor because it will support 400HP. Yes, it will in stock form. But you know very well that good gains are had by having a ported blower installed. Efficient air is happy air, and you are only as good as your weakest link.

 

This is why I recommended the second throttle body. It is obvious to me that MUCH more care and attention was taken to improving the shape of the throttle body for the sake of efficiency, and not just hogging it out.

Chris,

 

I'll stand by my statement. Ed took a stock TB down into 11s, Turbo Tim has taken a stock TB into mid 11s, etc. It wasn't the bore or shape, but the MAF that was out flowed / became the restriction. You’re probably the last person I would need to be telling this...

 

I don't quite get your reference to blowers...TBs don't heat the air and really have no efficiency values other if they are just to small.

 

But, I dont have an LS1 so, port away.

 

[ 02. March 2005, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: n8 ]

[MrMeanGreen]

Originally posted by n8:

Chris,

 

I'll stand by my statement. Ed took a stock TB down into 11s, Turbo Tim has taken a stock TB into mid 11s, etc. It wasn't the bore or shape, but the MAF that was out flowed / became the restriction. You’re probably the last person I would need to be telling this...

 

I don't quite get your reference to blowers...TBs don't heat the air and really have no efficiency values other if they are just to small.

 

But, I dont have an LS1 so, port away.

11s don't mean dick, that's all traction and driver. I wanna see traps, muddafukka

 

Seriously, $95 shipped for a Jantzer is a nice deal and every little bit helps. Better to do than do not graemlins/nod.gif

[Nate1647545505]

Originally posted by Matt Sterbator:

11s don't mean dick, that's all traction and driver. I wanna see traps, muddafukka

 

Seriously, $95 shipped for a Jantzer is a nice deal and every little bit helps. Better to do than do not graemlins/nod.gif

Anthony,

 

I just used that as an example. the stock GT Throttle Body has the smallest bore of 65mm, and is good for flow ( with the center section removed and LT1 or LsX MAF inplace ) and it did perfectly fine carrying our 3800s into 118-125 traps...keeping in mind...this is respective to our motor.

 

Taking a look at some turbo kits around for the Ls1 motors...they put down 600/700/800 plus and mention no special throttle body, only a larger MAF. I checked HP and Speed Inc. Both have kits that throw down outrageous numbers.

 

Maybe smokinHawk or Mike with the Lingenfelter, can chime in if they have their TBs replaced.

 

every little bit helps. Better to do than do not graemlins/nod.gif

Amen. Won't argue one bit there. 95$ is what, maybe a full tank or so of race gas?

[excell]

Originally posted by n8:

Chris,

 

I'll stand by my statement. Ed took a stock TB down into 11s, Turbo Tim has taken a stock TB into mid 11s, etc. It wasn't the bore or shape, but the MAF that was out flowed / became the restriction. You’re probably the last person I would need to be telling this...

 

I don't quite get your reference to blowers...TBs don't heat the air and really have no efficiency values other if they are just to small.

 

But, I dont have an LS1 so, port away.

You aren't "telling" me anything. You are now mixing two subjects, the efficiency of a throttle body to process air and the ability of a MAF sensor to process air. What I read out of your "theory" is that you are basically saying if they didn't need to upgrade the MAF, they wouldn't have upgraded their throttle body. Sure, you can run a stock throttle body to the 10's if you want, but there is significant efficiency to be gained by upgrading the throttle body to a unit ported for efficiency of airflow.

 

I compared this subject to our blowers because I figured it would be a subject you can relate to. I see I was wrong, as you are reading too far into it in an attempt to look smart. Let's break it all down and keep on subject:

 

1) Yes, you can run any stock throttle body on either an LS1 or 3800 well into the 10's (or faster) if you want.

 

2) The design of either stock throttle body leaves something to be desired. No stock throttle body is designed exclusively for efficiency of airflow.

 

3) Good airflow efficiency gains are had by utilizing a throttle body ported for the sake of airflow efficiency.

 

Having a properly designed and ported throttle body is just as integral on an optimized setup as having a good flowing set of heads, or a camshaft matched to your combination, or even a PCM tuned well to the entire package. Can you do it with a stock throttle body? Yes, you can. Can you do it better with a properly ported design? Absolutely.

 

Just because you don't need something out of 100% necessity does not mean that it's unnecessary. Look at Anthony's current setup. Is he going to do 10's on stock heads? Yes, he is. Will he make a SHITLOAD of gains by upgrading the heads? Yes he will. Will he make further gains by upgrading the cam to one that is designed for better flowing heads in a blown application? Yes, he will. He doesn't need any of those to get to 10's, but they would help get him there much quicker. You could just as easily have said, "people are doing 10's on stock heads, you don't need to upgrade". Spend your money on something else." Yep, you would be right. But that does not mean that you will not see good gains if you chose to add them.

 

Just because something is "good enough" does not mean that it’s the best, most efficient way to make power.

[Nate1647545505]

Originally posted by Relegate:

What I read out of your "theory" is that you are basically saying if they didn't need to upgrade the MAF, they wouldn't have upgraded their throttle body..

Maybe I used poor wording. What I meant was to make an accurate comparison, the MAF center section sticks out like a sore thumb, reduces this "efficency" you speak of. To have a true shot of a 65mm bore, that would need to be removed, and the MAF plumbed in externally.

 

I compared this subject to our blowers because I figured it would be a subject you can relate to. I see I was wrong, as you are reading too far into it in an attempt to look smart.

Theres this thing called an opinion....

[excell]

Originally posted by n8:

I was just backing up my statement. The bore size is fine, it is NOT a restriction.

I'm not talking bore size; I'm talking about the ability of the throttle body to take in air more efficiently.

 

But, just to debunk that, most moderately modded 3800's benefit by 10HP from upgrading the throttle body to an LS1 or Northstar. If the bore size is "fine" then why do they make more horsepower?

 

Originally posted by n8:

So companies like Lingenfelter, HP, Speed Inc...all run stock TBs on their 600/700hp turbo cars, are ignoring a chance to make money, and better the efficency of their kit?

 

Then why do they still use the stock TB?

Because it brings the cost of a "kit" down - and they can sell you more parts later and make more money. It's bad business to include EVERY SINGLE PART that could make horsepower in a "kit." Where would you draw the line? Throttle bodies? Heads? 80mm turbos?

 

I created every single performance package on the Intense website. Go look at the heads and cam packages. Do they include throttle bodies? Ported blowers? Fuel injectors? No, because the kits would be $10,000 if you included everything you need to make the most horsepower. Plus you would make less money since people expect to get a hefty discount on a “packages” or “kits.” Think about it Nate.

 

http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=618

 

http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=617

 

http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=50

 

http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=48

 

http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=49

 

http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfelter/product.asp?dept%5Fid=16&pf%5Fid=471

[Nate1647545505]

Originally posted by Relegate:

2) The design of either stock throttle body leaves something to be desired. No stock throttle body is designed exclusively for efficiency of airflow.

 

3) Good airflow efficiency gains are had by utilizing a throttle body ported for the sake of airflow efficiency.

 

Having a properly designed and ported throttle body is just as integral on an optimized setup as having a good flowing set of heads, or a camshaft matched to your combination, or even a PCM tuned well to the entire package. Can you do it with a stock throttle body? Yes, you can. Can you do it better with a properly ported design? Absolutely.

 

Just because you don't need something out of 100% necessity does not mean that it's unnecessary. Look at Anthony's current setup. Is he going to do 10's on stock heads? Yes, he is. Will he make a SHITLOAD of gains by upgrading the heads? Yes he will. Will he make further gains by upgrading the cam to one that is designed for better flowing heads in a blown application? Yes, he will. He doesn't need any of those to get to 10's, but they would help get him there much quicker. You could just as easily have said, "people are doing 10's on stock heads, you don't need to upgrade". Spend your money on something else." Yep, you would be right. But that does not mean that you will not see good gains if you chose to add them.

 

Just because something is "good enough" does not mean that it’s the best, most efficient way to make power.

I never argued that all this was untrue. For 95 bucks, thats not to bad for something that may produce marginal gains.

 

You would think companies with 600-700-800whp cars would fine the stock throttle body inefficent by your terms and get into the market with porting them or giving you a bigger one with the kit...

 

Yet they don't.

[excell]

Oh, now I see that you changed your post while I was writing mine.

 

Read what I just wrote.

[Nate1647545505]

Damnit Chris,

 

Quoting was messing with me.

 

I didn't change shit.

 

We get 10hp...gee...without the big center section there...I wonder why...

 

What are the gains of a ZZP HVII TB? ( I honostly don't know )

[Nate1647545505]

Ughhh just delelte this whole mess.

 

He bought the damn thing anywho smile.gif

[excell]

Originally posted by n8:

Damnit Chris,

 

Quoting was messing with me.

 

I didn't change shit.

 

We get 10hp...gee...without the big center section there...I wonder why...

 

What are the gains of a ZZP HVII TB? ( I honostly don't know )

Yes you did, you took once post that was completely different, changed it, and posted a second one also. tongue.gif

 

The gains of a ported stock throttle body are in the vicinity of 5-8HP. It depends heavily on the setup. I'm talking a "stage 2" throttle body, since the stage 1 really has nothing done to it. You benefit from the increased efficiency, but lose by having the same bore size.

 

The biggest problem I see here Nate, is that you do not understand how the aftermarket automotive retail market works. You take the fact that a company does not include something as a sign that it's not necessary. Wrong. tongue.gif