3.1cutlass Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Did you read any of what you posted? Okay if the officer has suspicion that I'm going to commit a crime, or has seen a crime. No where does it say abiding by the law and doing nothing illegal. Yes. The officer thought he was committing a crime did he not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verse Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Yes. The officer thought he was committing a crime did he not? It's not a crime, so obviously the officer violated his rights and the law, hence why it upsets people. Not to mention this happened in Pennslyvania, not Ohio, so the ORC doesn't mean much. Either way it's your right to deny them identification if you are being lawful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3.1cutlass Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 It's not a crime, so obviously the officer violated his rights and the rules, hence why it upsets people. I never said the guy was committing any crime... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verse Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I never said the guy was committing any crime... lol? I said it's your right to deny identification, yet you said I was wrong. You're going in circles here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3.1cutlass Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 lol? I said it's your right to deny identification, yet you said I was wrong. You're going in circles here. I mean he wasn't committing a crime by carrying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Ignorance of the law is never an excuse. Sometimes that needs to be flipped on to the people tasked with enforcing the law. My argument isn't that he knowingly tried to violate any rights, just that he did indeed violate them. never said ignorance was but even cops aren't perfect. more often than not they respond to people with guns where the situation is not at all like this or good, so error on the side of safety despite the rights of a few here and there on rare occasions, I can live with that. Again, courts are there for when we feel we need to take those rare occasions to them. One part that I haven't pointed out is that this cop was a Sgt., meaning he is a more senior member of the force. How is it that a senior officer cannot even understand the laws which he is supposed to enforce? There are problems way beyond this specific scenario. ^^ the above applies to my work environment and lots of others too. sad really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3.1cutlass Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Upon further research PA does not have a "stop and identify" law like the one I posted for Ohio, that doesn't mean that Philly could have a city law regarding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hal Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 never said ignorance was but even cops aren't perfect. more often than not they respond to people with guns where the situation is not at all like this or good, so error on the side of safety despite the rights of a few here and there on rare occasions, I can live with that. Again, courts are there for when we feel we need to take those rare occasions to them. The problem is that these occasions are not as rare as people like to believe. It most definitely is not a question of perfection in police work, but they're not even achieving excellence. They are operating on the assumption that everyone with a gun is breaking the law. Innocent until proven guilty is not the law of the land anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 The problem is that these occasions are not as rare as people like to believe. It most definitely is not a question of perfection in police work, but they're not even achieving excellence. They are operating on the assumption that everyone with a gun is breaking the law. Innocent until proven guilty is not the law of the land anymore. Thank you. These two issues need some serious fixing. I think we need to start having open carry meetups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verse Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Thank you. These two issues need some serious fixing. I think we need to start having open carry meetups They do on ohioccwforums.org, usually at spots where others rights were violated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRocket1647545505 Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 open carry meetups http://i49.tinypic.com/bevo09.jpg :gabe: ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 The problem is that these occasions are not as rare as people like to believe. It most definitely is not a question of perfection in police work, but they're not even achieving excellence. I would like to see some stats on how common shit like this is. This stuff gets blown out of proportion in the media. They are operating on the assumption that everyone with a gun is breaking the law. Innocent until proven guilty is not the law of the land anymore.I wouldn't say that. I think they are going on the basis that so few open carry that it's better to be safe than sorry when they see it. Personally, I would never open carry nor do I feel it's a wise move overall. Just conceal it, keep proper permit on hand and move on. IMO, this guys is doing so to make a point because they can. It's his version of Bling. There's no real reason to open carry. Hell, none of my friends who are cops, including one Columbus SWAT Team member open carry on their days off. They all conceal their weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hal Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I would like to see some stats on how common shit like this is. This stuff gets blown out of proportion in the media. I wouldn't say that. I think they are going on the basis that so few open carry that it's better to be safe than sorry when they see it. Personally, I would never open carry nor do I feel it's a wise move overall. Just conceal it, keep proper permit on hand and move on. IMO, this guys is doing so to make a point because they can. It's his version of Bling. There's no real reason to open carry. Hell, none of my friends who are cops, including one Columbus SWAT Team member open carry on their days off. They all conceal their weapons. I wish I could get stats for that. I'm basing my comment on the amount of times I have seen it reported. Typically this isn't reported in major news either. I would agree about this guy, but it's his right. Do I feel a strong desire to open carry for the hell of it? No. I do feel a strong desire to protect my right to carry. I think that is where we differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hal Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Thank you. These two issues need some serious fixing. I think we need to start having open carry meetups I'm down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Do I feel a strong desire to open carry for the hell of it? No. I do feel a strong desire to protect my right to carry. I think that is where we differ. We don't differ in our desire to protect our right to carry. Don't mistake my debate with not wanting to have that right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurkvinny Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 "why would a guy, in 2011, be waltzing down the streets of Philly with a pistol on his side unless he was looking for a reason to use it?" This man just simply does not get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboNova Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 LOL... Whats more wrong with the picture... The guy who was legally carrying was also carrying an audio recorder which was active. Some people open carry because they want to be seen and want to cause problems. The cops were very wrong, but I bet that this Autozone like others dont allow firearms in their store so he was trespassing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboNova Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I would like to see some stats on how common shit like this is. This stuff gets blown out of proportion in the media. I wouldn't say that. I think they are going on the basis that so few open carry that it's better to be safe than sorry when they see it. Personally, I would never open carry nor do I feel it's a wise move overall. Just conceal it, keep proper permit on hand and move on. IMO, this guys is doing so to make a point because they can. It's his version of Bling. There's no real reason to open carry. Hell, none of my friends who are cops, including one Columbus SWAT Team member open carry on their days off. They all conceal their weapons. not allowed to open carry per directive, must be concealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 The more gun rights we can secure now, the harder they are to take away. Sure, open carry may not be the best way to carry, but having the option is a good thing. Plus, its a way of swaying public opinion. If people become comfortable with the idea that regular citizens can and do carry a gun, then they will become more comfortable with guns in general and see that they don't magically jump up and rape babies, and will therefore be far less likely to push for anti gun legislation. THIS is why we need to open carry. Secondly, as a way to defend yourself. I bet the cop in that story won't harass someone again for open carrying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 At the risk of sounding like a radical, I'll keep my opinion to myself. Extremely unprofessional given the fact they get paied by and work for the public. Anywho, I'm hoping Texas passes the OC bill here shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractor Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Cop saw guy OC firearm, stopped him and IMHO was taking precautions when "ordering him on his knees." The dude saying he has permits and whatnot isn't proof yet. I bet if he'd just obeyed the cop, the cop would have gotten to what he'd call a safe position (maybe disarmed the guy even), then checked for permits and sent him on his way. He was in a bad neighborhood after all and for all the cop knew had he dropped his guard for a second the dude would draw on him. I think it got blown way out of proportion by both sides. the dude should know that if he's gonna OC he should expect to have to comply with what ever officer stops him. Cops only enforce the law as they see it on the street, its up to a judge to determine guilt or innocence or if any law was even in effect. Good case point for this one happend to my brother a few months back. A pissed off friend of his called the police on him for shooting a gun and drinking (yeah white trash drama.) He lives on 150 acres, sheriff comes over and arrests him. He gets to court and the case is thrown out because he never broke any laws. sheriff being paranoid and doing their job. Judge did his job. Every cop can't have a judge running around in the car with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Good case point for this one happend to my brother a few months back. A pissed off friend of his called the police on him for shooting a gun and drinking (yeah white trash drama.) He lives on 150 acres, sheriff comes over and arrests him. He gets to court and the case is thrown out because he never broke any laws. sheriff being paranoid and doing their job. Judge did his job. Every cop can't have a judge running around in the car with him. This is true, police are not the judge. Their job is to enforce, not create or hand down the guilt of a crime. There's a little too much trust being put into the discretion of one police officer. It's a sad state of affairs when your average citizen has to fear Law Enforcement even when one abides by the laws set forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Spam Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 This situation would have been avoided if the police officer was under the correct assumption that hes innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. Something like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3mF7opZ_sI&feature=related This guy peacefully approached the men and asked for their license and then went about his way. He also knew his own laws. Makes a whole hell of a lot of difference. Sergeant was in the wrong, as well as the other cops that showed up. The guy was mistreated and should take any recourse to show PPD they fucked up, whether it be monetary or by firing all involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furloaf Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 I believe it is more likely that the Philadelphia cop was butthurt that someone other than him had a gun out in the open. He took it as a personal affront to his ego. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mseebs Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 While I believe carrying open carry is just going to make police target you, the leo could of approached this situation a lot better by just checking his license for the gun and the gun itself. Of course, considering the officer did not know the law makes a difference. I just find it hard to believe that that many officers did not know open carry was legal. As far as the dude getting charged for reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct, both will probably be thrown out in court as all he has to do is play the tape. Here's a better article on it... http://m.philly.com/phillycom/db_/contentdetail.htm;jsessionid=E19932C05D3DEA8C9997279DC1434DED?contentguid=v8rDTw2r&full=true Oh and at the end of the article they mention that the police department has now gone over the Open Carry law numerous times with its officers and the 'right way' to approach an oc individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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