Doc1647545523 Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 A friend has asked me for some general car advice on buying an M3, but what I know about BMW's is outdated. He's currently a part of the VW community and has done some impressive mods to his cars. He test drove an E46 M3 and now wants to go in that direction. His plan is to keep whatever he buys in stock trim for awhile, but he suspects he'll eventually want to build up the car. Here's the question: would the E46 M3 (2001-06) 6 cylinder motors have any advantages/disadvantages for modding up to 600 hp compared to the E90/92/93 M3 S65 motor? How do the weak points of the E46 M3's compare to the typical problems of the newer M3's? Any input is appreciated. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudiOn19s Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Neither is a good platform to modify to 600hp. both are high compression, rev to > 8k rpm and are fairly optimized from the factory at their existing power output. I know HP freaks makes some big power turbo E46 cars but if I remember correctly it requires a motor re-build to lower compression and strengthen the rods. He'd spend more on the turbo kit then he's spend to buy the whole car. E46 cars had rear subframe issues if abused or track heavily. E36 was the same way, Not sure if E92 is the same way and just hasn't show up yet but with each examle getting more powerful and heavier they just keep getting harder and harder on the pick-up points back there. Simple reinforcement kits are available but require a good bit of labor to get installed. Both are solid lifter and need valve adjustments periodically which are some decent coin if you can't do them yourself (shims for adjustment). **edit** Our M3 is my favorite car in the stable if that says anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 no 335 option in consideration? I'd look at one of those with some tasteful mods and call it a day. downside for both IMO is they are everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc1647545523 Posted July 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Thanks, Andy. That's very helpful. Tim-I'll ask him whether he's considered the 335. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Brian Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 no 335 option in consideration? I'd look at one of those with some tasteful mods and call it a day. downside for all bmw's is I can't tell the difference between the grocery getters and super expensive ones... fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2pointslow Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 If money is no issue than 600hp can be done. I believe 400-450 is within reach without breaking the bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate1647545505 Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 The S54 doesn't have most of the head to block sealing issues the older S50/S52's that powered the E36's had. As mentioned, high compression is the enemy. HP Freaks spent alot of $$ in chucked blocks exploring the platform. There's been a handfull of stock block cars in the 600hp range, but, with time -- they have all suffered a failure of somesort. Octane is key for these engines. E85 would be an excellent fuel choice for this setup. With Steed's manifold available to the public, and ProEFI's PnP EMS kit out, two key pieces to the puzzle are in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaSSon Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 As was posted, a 600whp E46 will require a motor rebuild in addition to forced induction. Go with an N54 335i and add a Vishnu single turbo. The single turbo kit done right will run ~$14k, including upgraded half shafts, clutch, and a LSD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versluis Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 im a much bigger fan of the e9x m3's because of the v8 and the DCT trans. they can look very good and there are power options out there. have him look on m3post under the sponsor section and there are some companies that do amazing work. one company that really catches me is IND. i would recomend the performance package if purch unless he is going to change out the rims and suspension. the smg in the e46 can be iffy and i just cant trust them. i know people have had them with no issues but overall just scary. if he is going to get one he should get the e93 m3 and do bmw individual color is possible to keep it different from other m3's you see on the street. i have not come across any subframe issues yet in the e9x but time will only tell. example: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478246 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Brian Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 http://blog.gamemaki.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/mother-god-meme.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 You've gotten great answers on the 600hp front, so I'll just put my 2 cents elsewhere. The e46 M3 is one of the best all around cars I've ever had the pleasure to drive. It's comfy, has plenty of features, and looks great. In additon to that it represents EXACTLY what BMW fans talk about with their ultimate driving machines. While not fast in a straight line by today's standards, it's still quite fun and the S54 6-cylinder sounds amazing (rasp or no). With some simple suspension and brake tweaks the car will absolutly rip up a track and always ask for more. I've named Audion19s M3 the "Hero Maker" for years now because on the track it's solid, confidence inspiring, and the brakes felt better than the ones in his GT3. He really didn't go crazy on things to get it that way either and didn't have to give up conveniences as he still had full power seats and 3-point belts. Tell your friend to drive a clean example of an e46 M3 before he ever decides on anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 IMO BMW has gotten away from the Ultimate Driving Machine philosophy since the early 2000s. My dad's '03 530i drives like shit and my mom's '12 135i, while powerful, is not nearly as fun as older BMWs are. Call me nostalgic, but if I wanted the experience the new bimmers try to present, I'd buy a Mercedes or an Audi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadz89GTA Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Friend has a 98 M3 with a 408 LSx motor in it. Nice car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate1647545505 Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Friend has a 98 M3 with a 408 LSx motor in it. Nice car Thanks, you know, for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWW$HEEET Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 You can get a proven 705whp out of an s50/2 without touching the bottom end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate1647545505 Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 You can get a proven 705whp out of an s50/2 without touching the bottom end. :dumb: Have fun changing headgaskets every week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWW$HEEET Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 :dumb: Have fun changing headgaskets every week. Actually it was a m52 2.8L, stock bottom end with MLS. I don't think the HG would be the first thing to go. It'd be the rods I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crummer Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Here is a great article on the pros and cons of the s65 and s54 and boosting both. The s54 is a solid motor and can do 600hp on the stock internals, so can the s65. However the s54 can do 1000+ on the snail, where the s65 is maxed at ~650 to 700 on a supercharger (turbo option not yet developed due to space constraints). The article also does a great job of giving context to "why" the progression happened from the I6 to the V8. http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthread.php?1165-S54-vs-S65-Overview-history-comparison-and-power-potential One word of caution to your buddy, the cost of modding a BMW begins to become exponentially expensive, even more so than a VW. He may be fully aware of this but it is worth the call out. If he wants a ride in an s65, give me a shout :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate1647545505 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I dont think there's a question of what "can" the S54 do in stock form, but, how long and what conditions. A decent number of the Stage 2.5 cars end up becoming stage 3 (with built internals, oversized L19 studs, etc). Similar story on ICS's builds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crummer Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 ^ good point, always a fact of life anytime you go NA to boost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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