Honda hybrid tech

[mmrmnhrm]

Need to talk with someone who has a clue, and won't just parrot corporate's "there's no light, there's no problem" stance on the issue . Older members have probably seen my chart before, and the IMA battery deterioration continues. At this point, the system goes into recalibration as soon as I start it, and depending on the length of the drive, can often go into that mode several times afterwards. The mechanical starter is almost always required on Monday mornings (the car doesn't see as much driving over the weekend), and often two or three other times during the week. If you're going to tell me, "But that's totally normal," then you've already drunk the corporate Kool-Aid. If there's a brain at Germain, great. If I have to go to Marysville to get someone, so be it.

[SinisterSS]

you should have put this in the Tech Help section, I work for Acura so don't shoot the messenger, FYI your car has an extended warranty on the IMA module incase you didn't know its now:

9yrs/96,600 miles/11yrs 170,100 miles v.s the old 8yrs/80,000 miles/10yrs/150,000 miles

 

But I have a few questions

 

1. has the PCM been updated? there's a Service Bulletin 10-034 for IMA battery deterioration

 

2. has service bulletin 11-013 been done? 2006 civic hybrid From VIN JHMFA362.6S000019 thru JHMFA362.6S031156 Safety recall for the DC-DC converter blowing the main fuse. (not sure if your car falls under this recall as I don't know your VIN)

 

3. has service bulletin 12-044 been done? Junction Board Replacement

(IMA Battery Module Replacement and Transfer of Junction Board)

Edited June 4, 2013 by SinisterSS

[mmrmnhrm]

Need a hand understanding your mileage counts... when I bought the car, as a non-CARB state, it was my understanding that the IMA subsystem warranty was 8/80 (which if I read your notes correctly, would now be 9/96). I tossed HondaCare's 8/120k on top of it, actually expecting that it would be either the dual-valve cam system or CVT to fail, not the battery. On the updates:

1- I believe this one has been downloaded into the PCM (I had IMA updates loaded in late '09 and mid '10)

2- I think this has also been done (My VIN is in range, and this sounds familiar, but I'd have to look)

3- Almost certainly not (this doesn't sound the least bit familiar, and it's not like Honda has gone out of their way to publicize this)

 

WRT #3, are they completely replacing the IMA battery pack, or just a board? If the former, are they using a new or cared-for pack, or one that's been sitting on the shelf since Honda changed over to lithium-based packs (The '06 year was still on NiMH packs)?

Edited June 3, 2013 by mmrmnhrm
And if a mod could kindly move this over to tech.....

[SinisterSS]

Need a hand understanding your mileage counts... when I bought the car, as a non-CARB state, it was my understanding that the IMA subsystem warranty was 8/80 (which if I read your notes correctly, would now be 9/96). I tossed HondaCare's 8/120k on top of it, actually expecting that it would be either the dual-valve cam system or CVT to fail, not the battery. On the updates:

1- I believe this one has been downloaded into the PCM (I had IMA updates loaded in late '09 and mid '10)

2- I think this has also been done (My VIN is in range, and this sounds familiar, but I'd have to look)

3- Almost certainly not (this doesn't sound the least bit familiar, and it's not like Honda has gone out of their way to publicize this)

 

WRT #3, are they completely replacing the IMA battery pack, or just a board? If the former, are they using a new or cared-for pack, or one that's been sitting on the shelf since Honda changed over to lithium-based packs (The '06 year was still on NiMH packs)?

 

as far as the PCM update goes, Bulletin 10-034 came out 7/29/2011 replacing Bulletin 09-058 (PCM udate)

 

Bulletin 12-048: if the IMA battery needs replaced they'll replace it with the latest updated battery and they'll swap the junction board over to the new battery.

 

Now the ONLY real issue I can see from just reading the Bulletin is if someone installed the wrong PCM software per your IMA battery code, looks like there's been some issues with that, here's some of the Bulletin:

 

 

BACKGROUND

Due to improvements in battery manufacturing

efficiency, once stocks of original IMA batteries are

depleted, new battery designs will be available for IMA

battery replacement. Each battery type requires that its

battery control software be matched to its IMA battery

type. Failure to match the software with the battery will

result in reduced IMA battery life.

In addition, if the battery condition monitor (BCM) or

the motor control module (MCM) is replaced or

reprogrammed, matching IMA battery software must be

installed in that control module to maximize the IMA

battery's life.

This service bulletin includes these subjects:

• Identifying IMA battery types

• Determining correct IMA software and matching it to

the IMA battery

• Installing IMA battery software

• Replacing BCM/MCM hardware and updating its

software

• Checking for an IMA battery/software mismatch DTC

[mmrmnhrm]

Sounds like #3 is only applicable if the IMA battery is currently throwing a code (or was replaced earlier), which makes it a sort of "Hey, pay attention, there's some other shit you gotta do, too!" bulletin.

 

Short of doing something to make the battery fail in a spectacularly dangerous way, how can I get a service writer/tech to pay attention? I've been driving this thing for seven-plus years, have documentation of how the efficiency has gone to shit, but get the "if there's no light, then there isn't a problem" corporate Kool-Aid. I used to love this car, but now I cringe whenever I hear that traditional starter cranking away again.

[SinisterSS]

Sounds like #3 is only applicable if the IMA battery is currently throwing a code (or was replaced earlier), which makes it a sort of "Hey, pay attention, there's some other shit you gotta do, too!" bulletin.

 

Short of doing something to make the battery fail in a spectacularly dangerous way, how can I get a service writer/tech to pay attention? I've been driving this thing for seven-plus years, have documentation of how the efficiency has gone to shit, but get the "if there's no light, then there isn't a problem" corporate Kool-Aid. I used to love this car, but now I cringe whenever I hear that traditional starter cranking away again.

 

I have no clue what all has been done to your car, is there a light on?

 

your next steps will be to either take the car back to them with your issue, ask them to have an experienced tech look at the car(the no light speech is bullshit) they have service manuals and ETM's to troubleshoot with! they can also call Honda TechLine for help, sounds to me their techs are lazy, you can call Honda's customer care number(not the dealership BUT Honda) they'll get involved with the district Honda Rep. and they'll want documentation on everything done relating to your issue before and after the repair

 

If all else fails take it to another respectable Honda dealer.

 

If your taking your car to Germain Honda I know there's a Tech there who is lazy and useless! he was fired from our dealership for selling work that didn't need to be done and his fix it right the first time ratio was 0, his electrical skills on a scale of 1-10 is a -1,000,000,000

guy can't even read a DMM doesn't know the difference between voltage and ohms, sad thing is this guy has been working on cars for over 10 years now

[staywide8]

Whos this guy? I worked there for 4 years, and never really had said issues with anyone.

[SinisterSS]

Whos this guy? I worked there for 4 years, and never really had said issues with anyone.

 

Terry Michael, he IS a real life Homer Simpson

 

 

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/cwash77/74185_4645672778219_712357777_n_zpsa90cfc8b.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/cwash77/homer-cartoon-simpsons_zps9025aae6.jpg

Edited June 4, 2013 by SinisterSS

[Aaron]

lol

[staywide8]

Yea..a hack. But no hybrid tech anyway. You should know that.

[mmrmnhrm]

I have no clue what all has been done to your car, is there a light on?

No, and that's where the problem starts. The car is pure stock (I even took out the K&N filter when it failed to do anything useful), so unless there's a "hush hush just take care of the guy" that's been started since the last time I tried to take this up with Germain, nobody's willing to do shit without some sort of IMA or MIL light.

 

your next steps will be to either take the car back to them with your issue, ask them to have an experienced tech look at the car(the no light speech is bullshit) they have service manuals and ETM's to troubleshoot with! they can also call Honda TechLine for help, sounds to me their techs are lazy, you can call Honda's customer care number(not the dealership BUT Honda) they'll get involved with the district Honda Rep. and they'll want documentation on everything done relating to your issue before and after the repair

Apart from printing/emailing the complete gas log and service history, I'm not sure what they'd find useful. It's an issue that develops over years, not something that you can just point at and say "Whoah, there's your problem!!!" the way you can see changing tires caused a nearly 20% efficiency drop.

If all else fails take it to another respectable Honda dealer.

Which would you suggest? I don't mind taking a couple of drives out to Marysville R&D if it means getting guys who could troubleshoot a single stray election while drunk, blindfolded, and subjected to the screeching of Peking Opera.

If your taking your car to Germain Honda I know there's a Tech there who is lazy and useless! he was fired from our dealership for selling work that didn't need to be done and his fix it right the first time ratio was 0, his electrical skills on a scale of 1-10 is a -1,000,000,000

guy can't even read a DMM doesn't know the difference between voltage and ohms, sad thing is this guy has been working on cars for over 10 years now

And people wonder why I went on a rant a couple months back about dealer shop pricing....

[SinisterSS]

No, and that's where the problem starts. The car is pure stock (I even took out the K&N filter when it failed to do anything useful), so unless there's a "hush hush just take care of the guy" that's been started since the last time I tried to take this up with Germain, nobody's willing to do shit without some sort of IMA or MIL light.

 

 

Apart from printing/emailing the complete gas log and service history, I'm not sure what they'd find useful. It's an issue that develops over years, not something that you can just point at and say "Whoah, there's your problem!!!" the way you can see changing tires caused a nearly 20% efficiency drop.

 

Which would you suggest? I don't mind taking a couple of drives out to Marysville R&D if it means getting guys who could troubleshoot a single stray election while drunk, blindfolded, and subjected to the screeching of Peking Opera.

 

And people wonder why I went on a rant a couple months back about dealer shop pricing....

 

I didn't mean any type of performance mod, I was talking about dealership service & repairs.

I can look up the warranty repair history on Honda's IN, it'll show me the dealerships number that did the work, repair actions and the part numbers of any replaced parts, if you want me to see what all has been done under warranty PM me the car's VIN # and I'll check it tomorrow, if not no biggie.

 

as far as taking it elsewhere try Lindsay Honda.

[SinisterSS]

Yea..a hack. But no hybrid tech anyway. You should know that.

 

you know him?

 

I can tell you this when he worked at Lindsay all he did was bitch about not getting hours, wouldn't buy any tools off the tool trucks, dealership stepped up and paid his toolbox off so Snap-on wouldn't repo it he hadn't made a payment on it in over 3yrs, he purchased a $30.00 flashlight of the Matco Tool truck and it took him 5-6 months to pay it off! he literally gave the Matco man $1 a week if anything at all, handed him a $5 once and asked for 4.00 back. He stole some shop tools said HE bought them when the service manger and all of us knew he was lying out his ass, when it came to diagnosing a car he would go around and ask each tech if they had any issues with said problem he was working on, would never pick up a service manual or ETM(were all still convinced to this day he can't read). He diagnosed car problems by going to the parts counter and asking to borrow whatever part he thought was bad and swapping it out, if it didn't fix the issue then he would remove and return the part and try another(rinse lather and repeat), he was the last one to work and the first one to leave.

I have so many stories about him, I don't know where to begin.

Edited June 4, 2013 by SinisterSS

[staywide8]

Advised there for 4 years...so ya

[SinisterSS]

Advised there for 4 years...so ya

 

our service adviser's did everything they could to keep him from getting assigned to any of their cars they wrote up

[mmrmnhrm]

PM sent with VIN, and chart updated

[SinisterSS]

PM sent with VIN, and chart updated

 

well Service Bulletin's that have been completed are:

07-009= 06 civic hybrid DC cover

07-061= 06 Suzuka civic brake switch

10-034= 06-08 civic hybrid reflash

11-013= 06-07 civic hybrid stalling.

 

only parts that have been replaced was a IMA control unit on 4/2/2011

 

open service bulletins are:

11-068= fuel tank seepage

12-077= 06-08 IMA battery

12-048= junction board replacement

10-083= IMA battery software and hardware updates(this is not really a service bulletin, its information for the dealerships on how to properly do the updates)

 

the open bulletins basically the normal warranty applies, but I see you have a VSC(vehicle service contract) and I stated earlier that Honda has extended the warranty on your car 8yrs/80,000 miles 10yrs/150,000 miles

so if your within the limits go back to Germain Honda or take it to another Honda dealer, if they blow you off call Honda customer relations they'll get you taken care of

[mmrmnhrm]

the open bulletins basically the normal warranty applies, but I see you have a VSC(vehicle service contract) and I stated earlier that Honda has extended the warranty on your car 8yrs/80,000 miles 10yrs/150,000 miles so if your within the limits go back to Germain Honda or take it to another Honda dealer, if they blow you off call Honda customer relations they'll get you taken care of

I guess that's the part I'm not clear about at this point... I bought the car in Ohio, so it should follow the federal (non-CARB) 8/80 warranty. The various court cases (Vaughn and Lockabey) I'm aware of would have extended this to (I think) 9/96. With just shy of 112k on the clock, I would not be covered under the "standard" warranty. However, as you saw, I got the HondaCare VSC at the 8/120 level, so in theory I would be covered by that. I'm not sure where you're coming up with 10/150 or 11/170. I see the first in the book for CARB states, but Ohio's not one of them, and guessing the second is what CARBs are extended to?

[TTQ B4U]

just skimming through the thread it seems to me like it's time to trade it in.

[Rocky31186]

just skimming through the thread it seems to me like it's time to trade it in.

 

That's what everyone with prius problems did when I was a Toyota tech.

 

After working on so many hybrids I would never own one.

[SinisterSS]

I guess that's the part I'm not clear about at this point... I bought the car in Ohio, so it should follow the federal (non-CARB) 8/80 warranty. The various court cases (Vaughn and Lockabey) I'm aware of would have extended this to (I think) 9/96. With just shy of 112k on the clock, I would not be covered under the "standard" warranty. However, as you saw, I got the HondaCare VSC at the 8/120 level, so in theory I would be covered by that. I'm not sure where you're coming up with 10/150 or 11/170. I see the first in the book for CARB states, but Ohio's not one of them, and guessing the second is what CARBs are extended to?

 

the IMA battery is 8/80 now its 9/96,600 if you have documentation about the complaint prior to the warranty limits call Honda customer care and let them know whats going on with your situation, they'll get involved and get you taken care of, make sure they know you have a VSC, it'll go 1 of 3 ways:

 

1. Honda will fix your issue as a 1 time goodwill repair

2. Honda will split the cost with you either 50/50 or Honda will pay for the part if you pay for the labor.

3. nothing

[mmrmnhrm]

just skimming through the thread it seems to me like it's time to trade it in.

 

I could go that way, except that there's nothing wrong it it mechanically, and it will function without any hybrid battery at all (there's a med student out in Phoenix who's been driving his with a shot battery for going on 3 years now). It's more the mentality of the thing... a functional battery is a core part of what this car should do, and when it functions correctly, I can get over 60mpg highway. In its current state, though, I'm lucky to see the same 35 a conventional Civic gets. That, and I just bought a house and there's a baby on the way, so dumping another 20k+ on a new car doesn't make a whole lot of sense right now.

 

if you have documentation about the complaint prior to the warranty limits call Honda customer care and let them know whats going on with your situation...

Best I could probably come up with are just forum postings and maybe an email between a Germain (probably still Immke at the time) service writer and I a few years ago, who basically told me, "Well, your tire pressure is high, and we don't recommend that even though it's printed on the tire that you're within limits, and the guy I talked with in LA said you're just another stupid git who doesn't know hybrids even though you drive one, so no, there's no problem with your battery." That's the kind of BS I'm referring to when I kvetch about how nobody seems to care.

[SinisterSS]

I could go that way, except that there's nothing wrong it it mechanically, and it will function without any hybrid battery at all (there's a med student out in Phoenix who's been driving his with a shot battery for going on 3 years now). It's more the mentality of the thing... a functional battery is a core part of what this car should do, and when it functions correctly, I can get over 60mpg highway. In its current state, though, I'm lucky to see the same 35 a conventional Civic gets. That, and I just bought a house and there's a baby on the way, so dumping another 20k+ on a new car doesn't make a whole lot of sense right now.

 

 

Best I could probably come up with are just forum postings and maybe an email between a Germain (probably still Immke at the time) service writer and I a few years ago, who basically told me, "Well, your tire pressure is high, and we don't recommend that even though it's printed on the tire that you're within limits, and the guy I talked with in LA said you're just another stupid git who doesn't know hybrids even though you drive one, so no, there's no problem with your battery." That's the kind of BS I'm referring to when I kvetch about how nobody seems to care.

 

who did you talk to in LA?

 

if there was ever a repair order written up at any "Honda" dealership with your IMA issue then its on file and Honda can access it. call Honda customer care.

 

Automobile Customer Service. Business hours are Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.

 

Honda Customer Service can now be reached via Twitter at: @HondaCustSvc

By Phone

At our toll-free number: 1-800-999-1009

By Fax

(310) 783-3023 (24 Hours)

 

By Mail

American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

Honda Automobile Customer Service

1919 Torrance Boulevard

Mail Stop: 500 - 2N - 7A

Torrance, CA 90501-2746

[mmrmnhrm]

I was never given the opportunity to talk to anyone in LA, the service writer (I know who, found the email I was referring to earlier) supposedly handled that for me by sending over a copy of the Excel sheet I've been keeping since I bought the car. But in his email, he carped about how my tires would crown at max sidewall pressure (the OEMs never did after 44k miles, and neither have the Michelins I have on there now after almost 70k) and that the added pressure does nothing for mpg (which I had empirically proved otherwise within the first year of owning the car, not to mention the handling improvement). He also hated on the K&N filter I had already removed, claiming that the extra air "is not really suggested with todays modern vehicles." Admittedly, it did precisely jack (which is why I took it out), but I'd think a service writer would at least be familiar with what the MAF sensor does I kind of wonder if he really did call LA, or just blew me off and made some shit up (which, given rumors I've heard of Immke's practices before Germain bought the franchise, wouldn't surprise me)

 

So anyways, I rather doubt there's an actual repair order somewhere in the VIN history they could look up, but I do have an email from mid-2010 (when there was less than 70k on the clock) that I was already experiencing a very clear drop in IMA performance.