Political Thread Of Fail And AIDS (Geeto ahead!)

[Geeesammy]

Ryan, McConnel, Pelosi, Reid, and Feinstein all need to F'n go. Along with probably 40 others.

 

Can some explain why we don't have term limits yet for these career fuckheads?

 

Would you enact a rule that puts you out of a job?

[TTQ B4U]

Trump himself said he is in favor of DACA. Why kick the can down the road? The program was recinded in September and Trump said he wanted Congress to bring a permanent DACA bill to him, so what's the problem?

 

Can has already been kicked to the first week of March. There's no critical mass deadline. Besides, this is a Gov't funding need nothing to do with DACA. They agree'd on the budget related items. Schumar is just leveraging the issue to get the eyes off the economy, stock market and how well things are progressing. They can't have that as it doesn't help their plans for November and right now those are the two things 2018 is starting off with. He'd rather have it that the year started off with a shutdown.

[BStowers023]

So if the Federal Government is shut down, are we still paying federal taxes this week?

[Geeto67]

Let's not forget a few things in the rush to blame some political party.

 

Trump wanted a shut down. This isn't because he's a republican, and more a factor of him being a political novice that doesn't really have knowledge of the process. He's been making comments on twitter since May that the government "needs a good shutdown".

 

Why? Well honestly I think part of it is that he really just wanted to see what would happen. This administration has been a lot of Trump testing what people have been telling him to see if it's actually true.

 

Another part of it is Trump's attitude toward government and again his failing to understand the nature of government as it pertains to projects and jobs. He thinks it is a perfectly acceptable way to make government smaller by just not appointing people to open positions in his administration. He doesn't understand that the government will continue to spend in those areas, even without leadership. Same thing here, a shut down to him is the ultimate small federal government, he doesn't really see a downside if it happens, even though it screws millions of Americans. Whether we like to admit it or not, shutdowns cost money (in the 10s of millions of dollars) and I don't really think that has occurred to Trump at all.

 

Also let's not pretend this is the first time this is happening. the two previous shutdowns were in 2013 and 1995-1996 and also occurred during a Republican majority house and senate. In fact out of the 8 times the government has "shut down" since 1980 the majority of the times it has been while Republicans have held the majority and/or the presidency. Republicans just like to play chicken with government closure more than democrats as a way of forcing their agenda. What we are seeing isn't new or novel, it's a honed modern play from the political playbook. What will make this different is that in all prior cases, the president's saavy has helped to keep the disagreement to a minimum. Prior to this shutdown the longest one was 27 days broken up over 1 week in 1995 and 3 weeks in 1996 because president Clinton had vetoed a Republican proposed bill, and Newt Gingrich in retaliation rallied the Republican controlled congress to "shut 'er down". We will see if this newest shutdown reaches that level, but for everyone's sake I hope not.

 

 

To switch gears here for a moment, the New Yorker had a really good Op-Ed article on what is really lying at the heart of this shutdown:

https://www.newyorker.com/sections/news/the-shutdown-is-about-who-gets-to-be-an-american

 

The subtext that seems to be missed by many here is this isn't about how crass the president is, or how inexperienced he is, but rather his definition of what America is and why his rhetoric is extremely white supremacy friendly, why his cabinet may be enabling that, and why he may not see it himself.

 

So if the Federal Government is shut down, are we still paying federal taxes this week?

 

I can't tell if you are joking or serious, so I am just going to answer like this is a serious question.

 

During a "government shut down" the entire government doesn't just go home. There are some things that are considered essential that will continue to operate. During Tax season (and only during tax season), the IRS is considered essential because if they were to stop operating the costs and effects would snowball pretty quickly. Currently the IRS is going to work at 40% capacity.

 

This article details it pretty well: http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/20/pf/taxes/irs-taxes-government-shutdown/index.html

 

The most important impact to most of us is that refunds won't be issued during this time period. So they better figure this out soon.

 

now if your question also includes, are we paying withholding in our checks for this time period, the answer is yes - that will not change.

[BStowers023]

Let's not forget a few things in the rush to blame some political party.

 

Trump wanted a shut down. This isn't because he's a republican, and more a factor of him being a political novice that doesn't really have knowledge of the process. He's been making comments on twitter since May that the government "needs a good shutdown".

 

Why? Well honestly I think part of it is that he really just wanted to see what would happen. This administration has been a lot of Trump testing what people have been telling him to see if it's actually true.

 

Another part of it is Trump's attitude toward government and again his failing to understand the nature of government as it pertains to projects and jobs. He thinks it is a perfectly acceptable way to make government smaller by just not appointing people to open positions in his administration. He doesn't understand that the government will continue to spend in those areas, even without leadership. Same thing here, a shut down to him is the ultimate small federal government, he doesn't really see a downside if it happens, even though it screws millions of Americans. Whether we like to admit it or not, shutdowns cost money (in the 10s of millions of dollars) and I don't really think that has occurred to Trump at all.

 

Also let's not pretend this is the first time this is happening. the two previous shutdowns were in 2013 and 1995-1996 and also occurred during a Republican majority house and senate. In fact out of the 8 times the government has "shut down" since 1980 the majority of the times it has been while Republicans have held the majority and/or the presidency. Republicans just like to play chicken with government closure more than democrats as a way of forcing their agenda. What we are seeing isn't new or novel, it's a honed modern play from the political playbook. What will make this different is that in all prior cases, the president's saavy has helped to keep the disagreement to a minimum. Prior to this shutdown the longest one was 27 days broken up over 1 week in 1995 and 3 weeks in 1996 because president Clinton had vetoed a Republican proposed bill, and Newt Gingrich in retaliation rallied the Republican controlled congress to "shut 'er down". We will see if this newest shutdown reaches that level, but for everyone's sake I hope not.

 

 

To switch gears here for a moment, the New Yorker had a really good Op-Ed article on what is really lying at the heart of this shutdown:

https://www.newyorker.com/sections/news/the-shutdown-is-about-who-gets-to-be-an-american

 

The subtext that seems to be missed by many here is this isn't about how crass the president is, or how inexperienced he is, but rather his definition of what America is and why his rhetoric is extremely white supremacy friendly, why his cabinet may be enabling that, and why he may not see it himself.

 

 

 

I can't tell if you are joking or serious, so I am just going to answer like this is a serious question.

 

During a "government shut down" the entire government doesn't just go home. There are some things that are considered essential that will continue to operate. During Tax season (and only during tax season), the IRS is considered essential because if they were to stop operating the costs and effects would snowball pretty quickly. Currently the IRS is going to work at 40% capacity.

 

This article details it pretty well: http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/20/pf/taxes/irs-taxes-government-shutdown/index.html

 

The most important impact to most of us is that refunds won't be issued during this time period. So they better figure this out soon.

 

now if your question also includes, are we paying withholding in our checks for this time period, the answer is yes - that will not change.

 

 

"Let's not rush to blame some political party."

 

Goes on rant blaming a political party :lolguy::dumb:

 

And yes my comment was a joke. I know they will get their money regardless if we get a working product or not.

[Geeto67]

"Let's not rush to blame some political party."

 

Goes on rant blaming a political party :lolguy::dumb:

 

Be more stupid will you?

 

Hopefully, you don't view Trump as the end all be all of the republican party. there are plenty of republicans that disown him.

 

Second, historical context is not "blame". Stating a fact that this happens during certain conditions and one of those conditions is often a republican majority house is not "blame". There still needs to be bipartisan consensus, no matter what so blame them all since they all have to vote. To be honest, blaming people in this situation is counter productive. What's the problem and how do we fix it?

[BStowers023]

Be more stupid will you?

 

Hopefully, you don't view Trump as the end all be all of the republican party. there are plenty of republicans that disown him.

 

Second, historical context is not "blame". Stating a fact that this happens during certain conditions and one of those conditions is often a republican majority house is not "blame". There still needs to be bipartisan consensus, no matter what so blame them all since they all have to vote. To be honest, blaming people in this situation is counter productive. What's the problem and how do we fix it?

 

You want me to ask more questions right? What were the democrat and republican votes on the shutdown by the numbers?

[greg1647545532]

You want me to ask more questions right? What were the democrat and republican votes on the shutdown by the numbers?

 

Democrats share blame for the shutdown; they're in the best position to end it, as only a handful of them would need to vote for the CR to keep the government funded.

 

But we all know it's not that simple, right?

[BStowers023]

Democrats share blame for the shutdown; they're in the best position to end it, as only a handful of them would need to vote for the CR to keep the government funded.

 

But we all know it's not that simple, right?

 

It's simple enough for Kerry to just blame Trump.

[greg1647545532]

It's simple enough for Kerry to just blame Trump.

 

Stating a fact that this happens during certain conditions and one of those conditions is often a republican majority house is not "blame". There still needs to be bipartisan consensus, no matter what so blame them all since they all have to vote.

 

I can read, seems like he says we can blame them all. I therefore declare your assessment of Kerry's position to be "fake news."

[BStowers023]

I can read, seems like he says we can blame them all. I therefore declare your assessment of Kerry's position to be "fake news."

 

He mentioned that after I called out the Dems. Go read his original post about this subject. He clearly is solely blaming Trump.

[greg1647545532]

He mentioned that after I called out the Dems. Go read his original post about this subject. He clearly is solely blaming Trump.

 

Nope, fake news. He points out reasons Trump is to blame, but never says that Democrats are blameless, or that Trump is solely to blame, or anything like that. Cut it out with your alternative facts.

[BStowers023]

Nope, fake news. He points out reasons Trump is to blame, but never says that Democrats are blameless, or that Trump is solely to blame, or anything like that. Cut it out with your alternative facts.

 

K.

[Geeto67]

You want me to ask more questions right? What were the democrat and republican votes on the shutdown by the numbers?

 

yes but I also want you to do less of this:

 

"Let's not rush to blame some political party."

 

Goes on rant blaming a political party :lolguy::dumb:

 

Trying to get you to see the bigger picture and transcend the parties. The lens of the political parties is so distorting, it is much better to look at actual issues outside the spectrum and then look at individual political platforms as solutions to those issues.

 

Regarding the shutdown, what you are seeing is pure political gamesmanship. Don't think of it as the blame game he said, she said bullshit - think of it more like strategy in chess or football. Both sides are going to blame each other and try to get americans to pick a team as part of this. Look at the bigger picture of actions, reactions, and consequences instead of blame:

 

Republican majority rule tends to lead to this situation because at the core of their constituency is "small government". So they are more willing to force that situation because they usually don't take the hit as badly in popularity (or political currency if you need to see it as a value) as the democrats do. Republicans (at least until this administration) tend to vote more along party lines so they don't need a lot of democrats to flip over, and in the past they were usually able to leverage democrats residing in conservative states to hop the fence. Because they are aware of the leverage a government shutdown gives them over the democrats they tend to ask for some pretty outlandish stuff that nobody would agree to whole cloth. Once it gets vetoed and the government shuts down, they then use the pressure being exerted on the democrats by falling popular opinion (again political currency which translates to votes in the next election which happens this year) to get some of what they want that they normally would not get in an un-pressured bi-partisan situation.

 

Democrats can sometimes slow the spending of their political currency (e.g. popularity) by presenting this as a republican caused problem since they hold the majority. It doesn't put them on equal footing but it does buy them some time. Democrats aren't as cohesive as a party in terms of party line voting, often they tend to vote in clusters, which means if the republicans can work with cluster of people they can often get the votes they need without having to give up too much. But in order to do that, they first need to make the democrats reject their initial measure along party lines - force cohesiveness so they can then divide and deal, and they do that by asking for that outlandish stuff and then running out the clock so the government shuts down. Basically the only play the democrats are left with is to hold out or to cave. If they hold it really is on them that the shutdown occurs, but it can sometimes play really well to their fan base depending on the issue, which is why they sometimes risk it. They know it will hurt Americans too, but it also sometimes hurts their platform so it's a bit of a sophie's choice.

 

 

 

What's particularly interesting here is that the core point of contention, DACA and the border wall, is one of the few issues that tends to run consistent along both parties and each's position is vastly opposed by the other party. So it's a bit of a hail mary pass on the part of the republicans that if it pays off will look like a victory for both sides, but a bigger victory for Republicans than Democrats.

 

The initial vote is pretty clear - there were only 5 republicans against the measure and 5 democrats for it. But remember it is the initial vote. There was a deal negotiated for DACA spending and the border wall but the spending initiative put to a vote was not the same deal as had been negotiated - the majority of those on the democrat side would never have voted for it and that was kind of the point. If a car dealer did that to (add favorable terms to the contract after you negotated a deal) for buying a car, you would probably call them a scumbag, but this is par for the course in politics and they are all a little bit scumbag-y.

 

Republicans can let the clock run out, add pressure to the democrats to re-negotiate, look like they were dealing fairly when they weren't, and spin it so it looks like the democrat's fault. Now there will be another negotiation, and the democrats will give in more to the republicans.

 

Get it?

 

now here is the $64,000 question: Are you ok with this? Any government shutdown costs the country millions and hurts millions of American families. So that a necessary cost of advancing a republican agenda? Or is this completely unacceptable?

 

It's hard to blame either party for wanting to advance their agenda and using all sorts of strategy to do so. But at the same time shouldn't we blame them (ALL OF THEM) when these sort of games hurt the people they are supposed to be advocating for?

Edited January 22, 2018 by Geeto67

[TTQ B4U]

now here is the $64,000 question: Are you ok with this? Any government shutdown costs the country millions and hurts millions of American families. So that a necessary cost of advancing a republican agenda? Or is this completely unacceptable?

 

There's no need for a shutdown period. In the absence of an agreed upon budget the previous years deal should carry through until one is reached. Period. As you noted and I agree, the entire shutdown is bullshit politics and part of what needs to end.

[Geeto67]

There's no need for a shutdown period. In the absence of an agreed upon budget the previous years deal should carry through until one is reached. Period. As you noted and I agree, the entire shutdown is bullshit politics and part of what needs to end.

 

I agree, but keep in mind....this is one play in the playbook and there are other situations where democrats have the leverage.

 

In general, democrats tend to hold a majority favorable opinion in this country. Whether that turns into votes depends largely on the candidate, but when it comes to initiatives, absent plays like this, the majority of the time negotiations tend to lean more democratic as each individual senator tries to manage their political currency (popularity) with their local constituency.

 

Eliminating ALL political gamesmanship may have the effect of pushing legislative initiatives more progressive - is that a consequence you are willing to live with to have less political infighting?

[TTQ B4U]

Eliminating ALL political gamesmanship may have the effect of pushing legislative initiatives more progressive - is that a consequence you are willing to live with to have less political infighting?

 

Political gamesmanship is pure BS. It's why Trump did so well. Many of us aren't interested in political BS and paying someone like Pelosi or Ryan or others to partake. Time to drain that swamp of people making a living on our dime.

 

Find a feasible solution and make it happen or GTFO. Schumer is a old time dick that needs to go, Pelosi is an out of touch old fuck who needs to go, McConnel is an old dead horse that needs to go, Ryan has no balls and is trying to play old school games.

 

Work out a deal for the ones of the 800k on DACA that have merit, get rid of the shady shit ones, end chain migration as WE should be the ones dictating who comes over not the immigrants that are fortunate to qualify, end the lottery BS and fortify the border with whatever means works. I don't care if it's a wall of bricks or a rotation of troops with handcuffs and guns every 50ft. Crack down on employers and implement some better systems. Finally use some fucking common sense when it comes to bringing in people. We don't need any boat-people somalians with no job to move over near Karl Rd.

[Geeto67]

aaaannnd....it's over:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/22/us/politics/government-shutdown.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=span-ab-top-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&hp

[wagner]

I know that the patriarchy exists. I know that feminism is necessary literally everywhere. I also know that being in favor of equality means standing against ALL forms of discrimination, including speciesism.

 

What would you call a person who is against racism, but has no problem with sexism? How about a person who claims to be opposed to sexism, but is transphobic? You'd call them hypocrites, wouldn't you? Yeah, well, that's what I call ANYONE who says we should respect the rights of humans while they choose to violate the rights of nonhumans.

 

Oppression doesn't cease to be evil just because you enjoy the taste of it.

[zeitgeist57]

To switch gears here for a moment, the New Yorker had a really good Op-Ed article on what is really lying at the heart of this shutdown:

https://www.newyorker.com/sections/news/the-shutdown-is-about-who-gets-to-be-an-american

 

Open article, see author's avatar is a white male with a hyphenated last name, rightfully assumes article takes a liberal stance on the issue. :gabe:

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/506/348/e55.jpg

 

Honestly, great article. I especially liked this quote:

"“This country was founded by geniuses,” the Louisiana Republican John Neely Kennedy said. “It’s being run by idiots.”

 

<<Fiscally-conservative voter here....It still upsets me that DACA/"Dreamers" are being used as a political football. Unemployment is at a historically low level, and finding qualified employees is by far the number one issue facing companies I work with. Immigrants form an extremely valuable part of society doing jobs that 'Muricans no longer want to do. "THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!!!" is no longer a valid argument against wasting money on a border wall.

 

Both sides are at fault in the first .gov shutdown since January, 2008...and most of the reason is because of immigration? Moronic.

[greg1647545532]

Both sides are at fault in the first .gov shutdown since January, 2008...and most of the reason is because of immigration? Moronic.

 

It's especially idiotic considering

 

1) DACA wasn't an issue, it's a popular program that was operating just fine, except

2) Republicans [rightfully] had a problem with the way it was implemented, via executive order rather than legislation, so

3) Congress did absolutely nothing about this issue, despite having the better part of a decade to deal with it and no real political opposition to doing something, until

4) Trump [wrongfully] cancelled it for no particular reason other than to motivate congress to do something, after which

5) Republicans in Congress wasted most of the 6 months pretending to do something about Obamacare even though they clearly had no plan for that, then passed a tax cut that didn't seem particularly urgent even though they clearly had no plan to pay for it, and finally

6) Everyone acts all surprised when this crisis of their own making finally comes to a head

 

Pure dysfunction.

[TTQ B4U]

Trump [wrongfully] cancelled it for no particular reason other than to motivate congress to do something, after which

 

I don't consider that dumb or wrong. He's forcing the issue so that we finally do shit the way it should have been done. As you noted, it's a popular program but it seems to me that the dems don't want it to be worked out the right way to benefit anyone all while under Trumps watch. IMO Schumer is a dick and just wanted it to seem like they were the ones fighting big bad Trump and to be seen as the savior so that the dems get the credit.

 

Now Trump has a chance to come across as the one who puts the issue to bed once and for all and again, that pisses the dems off.

[Geeto67]

 

Both sides are at fault in the first .gov shutdown since January, 2008...and most of the reason is because of immigration? Moronic.

 

Not to be that guy but...the last government shutdown was 2013. It lasted 16 days and was because the Republican majority house and senate wanted to block the ACA.

 

Prior to that it was 1995-1996 and was because the republican majority led house and senate (led by U.S. Speaker Newt Gingrich) were mad at Bill Clinton because he vetoed an unreasonably partisan spending bill. It lasted 27 days.

 

Prior to that was 1990 where the minority republican house and senate (led by minority whip Newt Gingrich) took exception to George H.W. Bush's deficit reduction package that increased taxes (after campaigning on the platform "read my lips no new taxes") and managed to withhold the necessary votes to make 60. yes with a minority, the republicans still managed a shutdown that lasted 2 days.

 

Of the 4 that happened in the 1980's 3 were because Reagan didn't agree with the deal congress worked out and 1 was because republicans didn't want to fund the FTC.

 

I don't think there was a 2008 shutdown. There was almost one but it didn't happen.

 

I am not sure there has ever been a good reason for a government shutdown. It's always a political football, but it is an effective conservative play in the the playbook.

 

 

I don't consider that dumb or wrong. He's forcing the issue so that we finally do shit the way it should have been done.

No. Stop. Wrong. He has his base convinced that immigration is a problem and DACA is part of that problem and since he has the power to cancel it because it was an EO, he did to make himself look good. Just go back through his twitter feed, it starts with deport the dreamers rhetoric and then softens slightly as he realizes he has to make a deal. It wasn't that long ago (September '17) when Jeff Sessions publicly called everyone protected under DACA criminals and called for their deportation. DACA protected individuals become eligible for deportation in Feb.

 

He knows a GOP majority congress would never pass DACA legislation, which is why he did this. If it was a Dem held congress he wouldn't have dared.

 

As you noted, it's a popular program but it seems to me that the dems don't want it to be worked out the right way to benefit anyone all while under Trumps watch.

Again, nope. Without leverage no majority republican congress would pass it "the right way", that's why it was done as an EO during Obama's term when the Republicans held majority house and senate.

 

IMO Schumer is a dick and just wanted it to seem like they were the ones fighting big bad Trump and to be seen as the savior so that the dems get the credit.

 

You just hate Schumer because you don't like his position on issues. Schumer is a publicity whore, it's well known but he isn't wrong - Bob Dole once said the most dangerous place to be is between chuck and a camera, and Obama even joked that he brings the media as his plus one to family events.

 

Honestly though, he's one of the few politicians that is effective in using publicity to his advantage and he's extremely informed about his constituency base and their core issues. Just because he is grand standing doesn't make him wrong, hint: he's not wrong.

 

Now Trump has a chance to come across as the one who puts the issue to bed once and for all and again, that pisses the dems off.

 

Actually, Mitch McConnell gets that credit, but I'm sure trump will steal it for his own.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Geeto67

[greg1647545532]

I don't consider that dumb or wrong. He's forcing the issue so that we finally do shit the way it should have been done. As you noted, it's a popular program but it seems to me that the dems don't want it to be worked out the right way to benefit anyone all while under Trumps watch. IMO Schumer is a dick and just wanted it to seem like they were the ones fighting big bad Trump and to be seen as the savior so that the dems get the credit.

 

Now Trump has a chance to come across as the one who puts the issue to bed once and for all and again, that pisses the dems off.

 

 

Yeah and if you're in your basement and you notice that the previous owner shored up the foundation incorrectly you just knock out the fucking supports to motivate yourself to fix it correctly at some point in the next 6 months.

 

I can't think of any way I'm better off now for Trump having forced the issue, and a bunch of unapproved orders proving how I'm not.

[TTQ B4U]

He has his base convinced that immigration is a problem and DACA is part of that problem and since he has the power to cancel it because it was an EO, he did to make himself look good.

 

our current immigration is pretty fucked up and DACA as an EO was a band-aid that did need addressed. the EO was just the same, Obama trying to make himself look good. He did that well at least.

 

It wasn't that long ago (September '17) when Jeff Sessions publicly called everyone protected under DACA criminals and called for their deportation. DACA protected individuals become eligible for deportation in Feb.

Jeff wasn't wrong. He, along with trump are just enforcing the laws as we know it. Not saying I agreed with his words, but I give him credit for following the law as it stands and again, forcing the issue. If congress doesn't like the law they can easily step in, protect the recipients and draft and pass new law. Now it appears that will happen.

 

Again, nope. Without leverage no majority republican congress would pass it "the right way", that's why it was done as an EO during Obama's term when the Republicans held majority house and senate.

Nope what? EO on a cause like this worked for a while, but I disagree it should be left alone and is working. Resolution is needed and I stand by the point it should have been done through congress. Didn't happen under Obama so he used his pen. Fine, but now it's time to try again and do it right.

 

You just hate Schumer because you don't like his position on issues. Schumer is a publicity whore, it's well known but he isn't wrong - Bob Dole once said the most dangerous place to be is between chuck and a camera, and Obama even joked that he brings the media as his plus one to family events.

His position is that of a whore for sure. He's old school partisian bullshit to the T and defines what Trump meant by swamp and what many of us hate about congress which is why they have an approval rating that put Trump in office to crash and burn them. He plays to the camera is such a phoney way it's laughable. Pelosi is just Schumer with tits.

 

Just because he is grand standing doesn't make him wrong, hint: he's not wrong.

He's wrong to have tried to force DACA inside a simple budget issue. Fuck stick idiot.

 

Actually, Mitch McConnell gets that credit, but I'm sure trump will steal it for his own.

McConnell is an old fuck-tard too. He talks like that PIA driver going 34mph is a 45mph zone because their too old and can't read the speed limit signs.