Gergwheel1647545492 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 SOME of the libs are the worst, sort of like SOME of the right-wing nut jobs are the worst. Part of the issue is both parties have allowed the loudest and craziest part of their cults to take the message over and people think it's the message, things spiral out of control from there. I like guns, I think people should be able to marry whoever they want and be treated as equals, I think if you want to get the old coat hanger shuffle to not have a baby you should be able to, and if you come to this country illegally you need to be taken back home like a lost puppy. Elected officials are all about power and they are going to do whatever they can to keep their power and keep their party in power, customers be dammed. I knew there was a reason we were friends. 100% agree with everything said here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10phone2 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 old coat hanger shuffle lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 The two party system wasn't ever intended. It's just something that happens in a democracy. The founders just didn't do enough to prevent it, even though some of the tried. Nobody likes the 2 party system, and I'd go so far as to say nobody likes their own party. There's just no way that 2 parties are going to satisfy anyone. This isn't news, everyone fucking hates the polarization. But here's where I'm at. Let's say you're a sailor on the HMS Bounty, and the first mate stages a mutiny. See, the Captain wants to go deliver the cargo to the port and get paid to buy more rum, and the first mate wants to divert to go get more rum now. I dunno, I'm not a pirate. Slowly but surely your fellow sailors fall in line either behind the Captain or the First Mate. You and your bunkmate, though, you're above all this. The two of you don't give a shit as long as you have 3 hots and a cot. High fives all around! But then, during the squabbling, the Bounty runs aground on a sandbar. The First Mate says, "Aye, let's dig ourselves off of this sandbar and then we can go off to get more rum!" And the Captain says, "Sandbars aren't real, we'll get moving eventually if we can just figure out what's wrong with the sails." Well you, being an experienced sailor, know that you're not getting off that sandbar until you dig yourselves out, barring some unpredictable storm coming by and giving you the push you need. So you talk to your bunkmate. "I think we ought to listen to the first mate on this one. And if we have to go along with his plan to get more rum now, well, that's just something we'll accept in order to get ourselves unstuck from this sandbar." And your bunkmate replies, "I THINK BOTH SIDES ARE STUPID." FWIW I think this is an excellent example, because it does highlight how the regular person still gets pulled into the two party system even when they are trying hard not to be pulled in. Just saying "both sides are stupid" isn't helpful. It doesn't matter if it is correct, doesn't matter if it identifies the polarization, it's not a plan to address an issue. Choosing to be captain obvious and then sitting with your arms crossed refusing to participate does not pass for a knowledgeable or saavy political opinion, it's just stating what everyone knows and then deciding to ignore there is still a problem that needs a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 I knew there was a reason we were friends. 100% agree with everything said here You're muh boi blue. It costs you nothing to be a good human, people have really lost sight of that. I don't agree with everything people say, but I'm not an overbearing asshole about it. I'm glad Trump is gone, he's a failed experiment in having a non-political person try to run a country. He thought he was the smartest person in the room and didn't surround himself with people that helped him, even if he did I don't think he would have listened. Now we get to see if Biden can bring us back onto the road without going to far to the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 I'm glad Trump is gone, he's a failed experiment in having a non-political person try to run a country. He thought he was the smartest person in the room and didn't surround himself with people that helped him, even if he did I don't think he would have listened. Trump wasn't the problem! Both sides are bad. You hate on Trump, me, I'm just sitting here like "I think you're all crazy." /s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 It costs you nothing to be a good human, people have really lost sight of that. I don't agree with everything people say, but I'm not an overbearing asshole about it. Yep SOME of the libs are the worst, sort of like SOME of the right-wing nut jobs are the worst. Part of the issue is both parties have allowed the loudest and craziest part of their cults to take the message over and people think it's the message, things spiral out of control from there. I like guns, I think people should be able to marry whoever they want and be treated as equals, I think if you want to get the old coat hanger shuffle to not have a baby you should be able to, and if you come to this country illegally you need to be taken back home like a lost puppy. Elected officials are all about power and they are going to do whatever they can to keep their power and keep their party in power, customers be dammed. If they pay taxes and work towards legal status, I have no problem with them being here. The issue lies when people came here legally but some bureaucratic bullshit changed their status to "illegal". I know of people that this happened to, and they are still fighting the system to stay. The rest I 100% agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodus Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 So like... Can we all agree Gary should be in the debates now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xlr8tn Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 FWIW I think this is an excellent example, because it does highlight how the regular person still gets pulled into the two party system even when they are trying hard not to be pulled in. Just saying "both sides are stupid" isn't helpful. It doesn't matter if it is correct, doesn't matter if it identifies the polarization, it's not a plan to address an issue. Choosing to be captain obvious and then sitting with your arms crossed refusing to participate does not pass for a knowledgeable or saavy political opinion, it's just stating what everyone knows and then deciding to ignore there is still a problem that needs a solution. So far the only "plan to address the issue" I see from anyone is people pointing fingers at each other to defend the ignorant shit their own party is doing. I have a full enough life without needing to spend time arguing over stupid shit that I probably don't agree with that much to begin with. I'll let everyone else spend their time on this planet doing that. It's just not that big of a deal no matter how big people may think it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coaster Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 So like... Can we all agree Gary should be in the debates now? No, Libertarians clearly did not meet *insert arbitrary new goal post* in order to be included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 So far the only "plan to address the issue" I see from anyone is people pointing fingers at each other to defend the ignorant shit their own party is doing. I have a full enough life without needing to spend time arguing over stupid shit that I probably don't agree with that much to begin with. I'll let everyone else spend their time on this planet doing that. It's just not that big of a deal no matter how big people may think it is. Many of us "stupid people" that won't choose a side are relying on the fact that these "public servants" have their constituents in their best interest as their job intended them to. However, we can see that appears not to be the case as the divide and desire for power and being "right" just continues to grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodus Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 Interesting thoughts here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 Elected officials are all about power and they are going to do whatever they can to keep their power and keep their party in power, customers be dammed. failed experiment in having a non-political person try to run a country. Trump failed at getting the corrupt career politicians out....oh well, let's hope Beijing Biden, the plagiarist, the liar, the racist, the corrupt, the creep will do better. Fingies crossed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 So far the only "plan to address the issue" I see from anyone is people pointing fingers at each other to defend the ignorant shit their own party is doing. I have a full enough life without needing to spend time arguing over stupid shit that I probably don't agree with that much to begin with. I'll let everyone else spend their time on this planet doing that. It's just not that big of a deal no matter how big people may think it is. If that is all you see then maybe you aren't as informed as you would like to be. The House of Representatives passed 400 bipartisan bills in 2018, and of those 70 got passed by the senate. 10 of those 70 were naming things like post offices and federal parks. For reference, congress usually passes between 300-500 bills a year in a pre Mitch McConnell Senate (that's republicans and democrats). those other approximately 360 bills? They didn't consider them and turn them down, they just didn't review them at all. I don't care what side you are on, you should have a problem with this. Also, you can't say they are doing nothing, there are people doing something - but there is a specific party that is intentionally making sure those trying to do something don't get work done. Now before the libertarian knee jerk kicks in, bills aren't all laws. They are naming things the government owns, they also repeal laws, amend existing laws, approve spending budgets for new and existing programs (like flood insurance and unemployment). It's a lot. Yes part of the government "getting bigger" is passing bills, but you can't make the government smaller or deregulate without passing bills either to remove or invalidate sections of existing laws. Honestly, it would be perfectly fine with me and most libertarians if congress reviewed those bills and voted them down, but they didn't - they just refused to consider them at all. There are plenty of people on both sides of the asile in the house of representatives trying to do something, but we have a senate that has intentionally beached the government and then convinced it's partisan base that it's a good thing when really it isn't. So what's left to do? That's why it looks like a lot of pointing fingers - most people in their news consumption focus on the president or the senate, the house gets plenty of press but it's not usually sexy news and people don't remember it, unless it's something batshit crazy like what we had recently with the objections to certifying the electoral college. Sooner or later you have to admit we are stranded on a sandbar, and it is one specific party that did it and is keeping us there. It's not partisan to recognize that the senate majority party has literally been soaking up a paycheck to under perform in their job role. I am sure that you can find all sorts of other things to rag on the other party for and be right about them, but this is not one. To dismiss it as pointing fingers isn't going to get anybody off the sandbar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 But are we on the sandbar because of BS extras that keep getting added to all these bills? Is the sandbar imaginary or is it really there at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xlr8tn Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 If that is all you see then maybe you aren't as informed as you would like to be. The House of Representatives passed 400 bipartisan bills in 2018, and of those 70 got passed by the senate. 10 of those 70 were naming things like post offices and federal parks. For reference, congress usually passes between 300-500 bills a year in a pre Mitch McConnell Senate (that's republicans and democrats). those other approximately 360 bills? They didn't consider them and turn them down, they just didn't review them at all. I don't care what side you are on, you should have a problem with this. Also, you can't say they are doing nothing, there are people doing something - but there is a specific party that is intentionally making sure those trying to do something don't get work done. Now before the libertarian knee jerk kicks in, bills aren't all laws. They are naming things the government owns, they also repeal laws, amend existing laws, approve spending budgets for new and existing programs (like flood insurance and unemployment). It's a lot. Yes part of the government "getting bigger" is passing bills, but you can't make the government smaller or deregulate without passing bills either to remove or invalidate sections of existing laws. Honestly, it would be perfectly fine with me and most libertarians if congress reviewed those bills and voted them down, but they didn't - they just refused to consider them at all. There are plenty of people on both sides of the asile in the house of representatives trying to do something, but we have a senate that has intentionally beached the government and then convinced it's partisan base that it's a good thing when really it isn't. So what's left to do? That's why it looks like a lot of pointing fingers - most people in their news consumption focus on the president or the senate, the house gets plenty of press but it's not usually sexy news and people don't remember it, unless it's something batshit crazy like what we had recently with the objections to certifying the electoral college. Sooner or later you have to admit we are stranded on a sandbar, and it is one specific party that did it and is keeping us there. It's not partisan to recognize that the senate majority party has literally been soaking up a paycheck to under perform in their job role. I am sure that you can find all sorts of other things to rag on the other party for and be right about them, but this is not one. To dismiss it as pointing fingers isn't going to get anybody off the sandbar. I'm informed fhe perfect amount I would like to be and your wall of text only reinforces that. Why type all that out? Why the need to "inform" me why I'm wrong for having my own opinion? I didn't read it and if I did I wouldn't have cared what it says. You do you but realize while you're doing that I'll be doing me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodus Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 But are we on the sandbar because of BS extras that keep getting added to all these bills? Is the sandbar imaginary or is it really there at all?Lol, you win this thread. Sent from my SM-F916U using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 I'm not trying to win anything, but many of these replies appear more about changing someone's mind or showing them why they are "wrong" rather than listening and simply discussing. If this is what the country has become, no wonder there are more and more shoving their heads in the proverbial sandbar that may or may not exist. There's nothing wrong with being a general good human being without picking a side. Though it seems to me if you haven't chosen a side they both will come at you to prove your are misinformed, wrong and unamerican. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 Trump failed at getting the corrupt career politicians out....oh well, let's hope Beijing Biden, the plagiarist, the liar, the racist, the corrupt, the creep will do better. Fingies crossed! gillbot, we got a side-picker here. Get 'em!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 So like... Can we all agree Gary should be in the debates now? I think we can all agree that the debates are literal bullshit. There is no part of the presidential process that requires the candidates debate. Prior to 1972 debates it basically was one candidate challenged another and then they would find a news outlet or public forum and do it. From 1976 to 1988 the debates were sponsored by the independent league of women voters. They set the rules with some agreement by the participating parties. They pulled out of sponsorship due to the two parties trying to undermine their independence. From 1988 to now, the debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates which are owned by the two parties. This is why the rules are setup specifically to favor the two parties and have set a high bar for independent candidates to be able to participate. For the debates to have real value, they need to be independently sponsored. As long as they are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates they are not. I am not saying there isn't good information there, sometimes there is, but it is information marked by an asterix as tainted. If we want that to change we need to make it clear to the media and politicians that it needs to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10phone2 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 But are we on the sandbar because of BS extras that keep getting added to all these bills? Is the sandbar imaginary or is it really there at all? It's a metaphor. Pork in the bills can be a problem...and both sides are guilty of the practice. BTW, sometimes it's not a problem - sometimes its a good thing to package deal certain things. However this is a separate issue and just another whataboutism distraction. You can't even begin to discuss whether a bill has too much pork in it or not unless it is up for consideration. If it isn't being submitted for consideration then the Senate isn't doing the one Job it was elected to do. Do you or Don't you have a problem with one person (the Senate majority leader) single-handedly reducing the effectiveness of your congressperson's representation of you? I have a huge problem with that, every American should have a problem with that - it means that the one part of this that was kind of working was broken by one party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 Trump failed at getting the corrupt career politicians out....oh well, let's hope Beijing Biden, the plagiarist, the liar, the racist, the corrupt, the creep will do better. Fingies crossed! Never said I liked the guy, but he's the captain meow. It's scary people forgot about the plagiarism and racist stuff he said.... Now, let's talk about this sandbar more, will there be booze and grilled meat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) I'm informed fhe perfect amount I would like to be and your wall of text only reinforces that. Why type all that out? Why the need to "inform" me why I'm wrong for having my own opinion? I didn't read it and if I did I wouldn't have cared what it says. You do you but realize while you're doing that I'll be doing me. I guess this boils down to what is your opinion worth? Nobody is ever wrong for having their own opinion. As the saying goes: "they can't take the space in you head". When you share your opinion, it does a few things: - It tells people something about you - It informs people how you feel about something Otherwise, why share it? If you want other's to find merit in your opinion and think highly of your character it needs to be credible. If it is to be credible it needs to be informed. If you response is to more information isn't to consider it and help it shape your opinion then your opinion is neither credible nor informed. Worse than that it tells others that your opinion isn't something they should care about and even that you might not be trusted on certain things. In as much as you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to my opinion that politically you aren't really anyone to be believed or listened to. There aren't right or wrong opinions, just informed and uninformed opinions, and when you present an uninformed opinion you are asking those you share it with to inform you. If your reaction to that is to tell them to fuck off I'm as informed as I want to be, then it speaks volumes to others as to your character and intelligence. Edited January 13, 2021 by Geeto67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 Now, let's talk about this sandbar more, will there be booze and grilled meat? You may have missed the most important part of the metaphor, which is that WE HAVE NO RUM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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