Apple keynote today, announcing iPhone 4G

[magley64]

magz,

Also, to say the iphone was great when it came out, but it's been bested seems like a silly argument. Are you comparing the original iphone to the new EVO? If you are, then hells yea it sucks. But if not, then the new iphone is nothing like the old one. As everyone else has gotten better, so has the iphone, so I don't completely follow that argument. I fully admit, maybe I misunderstand what you mean, so my bad if so, but I think if we're comparing the new iphone to the EVO, it's a better overall device.

.

no no, what i mean was that the original Iphone had a number of competetors within 6 months that did everything it did, and better. the 3g was the bomb but within 3 months it had a number of competetors that smoked it, 3gs, it was about a month before moto droid came out and destroyed it.

the fact that the evo is out before the 4g iphone, imagine the insanity of phones that will be out within a month of you actually getting this phone.

each generation of iphone has been bested faster and faster to now the evo (which may or may not be better, there are arguments for both that are valid) is out a month before you can even touch an iphone 4g...

i'm just sayin.

not to mention the fact that you HAVE to deal with ATT which makes your iphone as effective as an ipod touch in most places.

Edited June 15, 2010 by magley64

[fusion]

the only thing that processor has going for it is the PowerVR graphics rendering. The core is actually ARM-cortex based (same as A4), but it's actually significantly slower than the A4 - 1GHz > 720MHz. Unless they over clocked the core to 1GHz, but even then, they're stretching to even match the core speed.

Plus I have to point out the same memory-based improvement the A4 has over this thing that I said in my previous post.

Droid X out.

The literature points to it being clocked at 1GHz not 720MHz.

The iPhone's processor could be twice as fast and it would still be a shitty phone.

I'll add I do think it's cool they added the gyroscope to make a 6-axis.

[jarvismb]

no no, what i mean was that the original Iphone had a number of competetors within 6 months that did everything it did, and better. the 3g was the bomb but within 3 months it had a number of competetors that smoked it, 3gs, it was about a month before moto droid came out and destroyed it.

the fact that the evo is out before the 4g iphone, imagine the insanity of phones that will be out within a month of you actually getting this phone.

each generation of iphone has been bested faster and faster to now the evo (which may or may not be better, there are arguments for both that are valid) is out a month before you can even touch an iphone 4g...

I get that, and that is the way of technology for sure, but by the same token, you should be arguing that the iPhone 4 is better than the EVO because it came out later, no?

not to mention the fact that you HAVE to deal with ATT which makes your iphone as effective as an ipod touch in most places.

I'll never understand this kind of thing. Everyone and their mother says that having AT&T is like watching jbot curb-stomp puppies. Maybe it's just me, but I've never had a problem with it making calls.

The literature points to it being clocked at 1GHz not 720MHz.

The iPhone's processor could be twice as fast and it would still be a shitty phone.

I'll add I do think it's cool they added the gyroscope to make a 6-axis.

And to an extent they did slightly neglect the whole reception aspect of the design, but that's why the new idea of case-integrated antennas will be the new tits for the iPhones.

Don't get me wrong guys, read my previous post and realize I'm just waiting for the Android community to mature. The Apple community has better support and application diversity than Android does as of now, so that's where I'm sticking. The hardware doesn't hurt, but I'm keeping my eye on everyone's development.

[that dude]

Bro your fucking nuts if you think the droid smoked the 3gs. Your thoughts sometimes never cease to amaze ne, and are waaay off the truth. I phone was still is the premier phone.

[that dude]

Fuck veriZon and sprint . Wouldn't go back if the service and phones were free

[jbot]

I'll never understand this kind of thing. Everyone and their mother says that having AT&T is like watching jbot curb-stomp puppies. Maybe it's just me, but I've never had a problem with it making calls.

sorry, my "curb stomp puppies" alert went off and I'm just checking in.

i usually buy whatever phone will allow me to watch streaming pr0n in the highest resolution with clearest sound. that way, everyone else in the bathroom can enjoy the grunting, moaning, and sometimes, screaming, and they don't have to listen to the semi-wet "fap fap fap" noises.

[magley64]

Bro your fucking nuts if you think the droid smoked the 3gs. Your thoughts sometimes never cease to amaze ne, and are waaay off the truth. I phone was still is the premier phone.

my moto is running at 1.1 gig, which is faster than the snapdragon out of the box...3gs, 600, no overclocking, even when jailbroken...

[Sapphy]

magz,

we can't get into a real debate over why a chip is better simply because they might be able to overclock it later. The point is, the A4 is better than the snapdragon right now. I can't possibly type out the explanations of why having your main system operating memory flip-chip wire-bonded to the silicon of your main CPU is incredibly awesome for high-speed memory stability, but i assure you it is. Just because they will probably overclock the snapdragon doesn't give it any clout right now. Plus who says they won't over drive the system clock in the A4 later. It's just as easy as it sounds, and with the memory bus directly attached to the silicon substrate of the CPU, I'd give more credence to that system than the snapdragon anyway.

Also, to say the iphone was great when it came out, but it's been bested seems like a silly argument. Are you comparing the original iphone to the new EVO? If you are, then hells yea it sucks. But if not, then the new iphone is nothing like the old one. As everyone else has gotten better, so has the iphone, so I don't completely follow that argument. I fully admit, maybe I misunderstand what you mean, so my bad if so, but I think if we're comparing the new iphone to the EVO, it's a better overall device.

hollywood - i'm preordered as well. Here's to fighting the crowds at 7am next thursday morning...

This post just made me have a nerdgasum.

I preordered at 6am today as well.

[that dude]

my moto is running at 1.1 gig, which is faster than the snapdragon out of the box...3gs, 600, no overclocking, even when jailbroken...

Speed tests have proven the 3gs loads and renders pages much faster than the droid.look it up

[magley64]

Speed tests have proven the 3gs loads and renders pages much faster than the droid.look it up

out of the box, speed tests have also proven that jailbreaking makes your phone slower, AND you can't overclock to compensate...

where as rooting, and overclocking makes the droid way faster....look it up!

[Casper]

out of the box, speed tests have also proven that jailbreaking makes your phone slower, AND you can't overclock to compensate...

where as rooting, and overclocking makes the droid way faster....look it up!

The droid sucks my balls. Look it up!

Seriously though, I really don't like the Android OS.

[jarvismb]

simple CPU core speed is certainly a good litmus test for the overall performance of a given system, but it surely isn't the end-all factor. To make a system perform well overall, you need the proper software running on your given hardware platform. It's how the two interact that makes the best result.

For example, use the same computer and load Vista and then Red Hat Linux. The software is completely different, but the hardware is the same. Still, the computer will have completely different benchmarks because the software matters.

This is where the iphone shines. Everyone's opinions on the GUI aside, the kernel blazes, even on inferior hardware, which results in things like faster page-renderings. This is impressive, and it's what makes the iphone what it is. Now they even have the big-gig A4 to run that streamlined kernel, so hold on to your tits, because it'll be fast.

I have no doubt that Android will get better and better as people have more time to develop it, and it matures as a whole, but it isn't there yet, so I don't use it. Yet. Apple has had more time to refine their product and it shows.

This kind of thing ain't easy. If it was, it'd be your mom, and everyone would be doing it.

[Casper]

Everyone's opinions on the GUI aside, the kernel blazes, even on inferior hardware, which results in things like faster page-renderings. This is impressive, and it's what makes the iphone what it is. Now they even have the big-gig A4 to run that streamlined kernel, so hold on to your tits, because it'll be fast.

I think that might be my favorite quote of all time.

[fusion]

simple CPU core speed is certainly a good litmus test for the overall performance of a given system, but it surely isn't the end-all factor. To make a system perform well overall, you need the proper software running on your given hardware platform. It's how the two interact that makes the best result.

Of course you say this now. I'm sure you've figured out the core in the iPad, Iphone4, Droid are the same...

For example, use the same computer and load Vista and then Red Hat Linux. The software is completely different, but the hardware is the same. Still, the computer will have completely different benchmarks because the software matters.

Obviously

This is where the iphone shines. Everyone's opinions on the GUI aside, the kernel blazes, even on inferior hardware, which results in things like faster page-renderings. This is impressive, and it's what makes the iphone what it is. Now they even have the big-gig A4 to run that streamlined kernel, so hold on to your tits, because it'll be fast.

I have no doubt that Android will get better and better as people have more time to develop it, and it matures as a whole, but it isn't there yet, so I don't use it. Yet. Apple has had more time to refine their product and it shows.

This kind of thing ain't easy. If it was, it'd be your mom, and everyone would be doing it.

Yup many other phones (including the Droid) are already running the same core as your soon to be precious iPhone 4 and Android's Linux kernel is still more capable and open.

[jblosser]

....For example, use the same computer and load Vista and then Red Hat Linux. The software is completely different, but the hardware is the same. Still, the computer will have completely different benchmarks because the software matters....

Then use Openbox (or Fluxbox, or *box) instead of the bloated KDE or the less bloated than KDE but still bloated Gnome, and the speed difference v. Windows is even greater....

Good point, btw.

[jarvismb]

Of course you say this now. I'm sure you've figured out the core in the iPad, Iphone4, Droid are the same...

I've figured it out since the day they were announced, it's no big revelation that they use the ARM Cortex-A8, anyone with a brain would, it's an incredible platform (0.9VDC core voltage, holy shit, that's amazing). The A4 just took it a step further and created a system-on-chip with the A8 as the heart, and the others didn't.

Obviously

Obvious to you and me both, but I thought I had to make point since I was getting the impression not everyone in this thread had this in mind.

Yup many other phones (including the Droid) are already running the same core as your soon to be precious iPhone 4 and Android's Linux kernel is still more capable and open.

I refer to my previous point(s) about what you do with the core, both in terms of hardware and software that matters, and the software point leads into my (repeated) belief that Android's kernel isn't mature enough yet to be "more capable" than Apple's. As of now. I repeat, I have all the faith in the world that one day it will be, but it ain't that day yet.

[jarvismb]

Jeremi, let me also add an aside that one of the big opponents of this new iphone that we've been discussing is the EVO 4G, which uses a different processor altogether, and a lot of points about hardware are directed at these devices in particular.

I realize there are competitors that use the same processor and competitors that use different ones, but I still hold steadfast to the A4's proprietary unique use of the best core out there (Cortex-A8) that makes it the best platform.

[fusion]

I've figured it out since the day they were announced, it's no big revelation that they use the ARM Cortex-A8, anyone with a brain would, it's an incredible platform (0.9VDC core voltage, holy shit, that's amazing). The A4 just took it a step further and created a system-on-chip with the A8 as the heart, and the others didn't.

Part of my point. Last I read both the Nexus One and the Droid are also using SOC architecture.

Not a great article, but it was the first that popped up in Google that mentioned them using it: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10442684-64.html

Obvious to you and me both, but I thought I had to make point since I was getting the impression not everyone in this thread had this in mind.

Sorry was just being a bit of a smart ass.

I refer to my previous point(s) about what you do with the core, both in terms of hardware and software that matters, and the software point leads into my (repeated) belief that Android's kernel isn't mature enough yet to be "more capable" than Apple's. As of now. I repeat, I have all the faith in the world that one day it will be, but it ain't that day yet.

It's the Linux 2.6 kernel. Just how much more mature and capable does it have to be. I'd agree some of the UI's suck and with any platform some of the apps are poorly written, but the kernel its self is certainly mature and capable. On top of that let's not forget it's open...

[fusion]

Jeremi, let me also add an aside that one of the big opponents of this new iphone that we've been discussing is the EVO 4G, which uses a different processor altogether, and a lot of points about hardware are directed at these devices in particular.

Yeah I kind of jumped int he middle with Motorola's offerings.

I realize there are competitors that use the same processor and competitors that use different ones, but I still hold steadfast to the A4's proprietary unique use of the best core out there (Cortex-A8) that makes it the best platform.

Except it's not unique...

[jarvismb]

Part of my point. Last I read both the Nexus One and the Droid are also using SOC architecture.

Not a great article, but it was the first that popped up in Google that mentioned them using it: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10442684-64.html

Unfortunately, the term system-on-chip is used more often than I go off-roading, and it's always in refernce to different things each time. The SOC that the A4 uses refers to the only ARM architecture I know of that is self-sufficient in terms of basic operation (i.e. not dependent on external memory), and has the additional benefits of the media decoding and graphics decoding of the Cortex-A8. The chip used in the Nexus One is called a SOC by Qualcomm, but it's just referring to cell and wifi transceivers and some graphics & media decoders. It's not in reference to having built-in memory, like the A4.

Sorry was just being a bit of a smart ass.

And I should've know better, honestly...

It's the Linux 2.6 kernel. Just how much more mature and capable does it have to be. I'd agree some of the UI's suck and with any platform some of the apps are poorly written, but the kernel its self is certainly mature and capable. On top of that let's not forget it's open...

Here's where perhaps I've been a bit liberal with my exclusive use of the term kernel. I think maybe I should have been referring to the OS in general, because you are right, the underlying kernel is decently sound, but it's the kernel's peripheral interactions that (to be honest) kind of suck so far in current devices. Examples:

The UI animations aren't as fluid as they should be, so there's some sort of process priority preemption that needs to be sorted out between the base kernel and the thread scheduler.

The touchscreen (and thereby the base UI input tasks) reactions aren't what they need to be. Again, maybe this is driver-related, therefore it's more upper level, but it could also be a lower-level problem in the thread scheduler. This kind of thing requires a more gifted Android knowledge base than I have, but it still a question I have.

But I will say that the multi-tasking nature of the kernel is where it should be able to shine, and in terms of running the underlying system, and memory management, it does great, so the potential is there. I think they just need some time to get their peripheral interactions right before I buy. This also goes right into my agreement with your point of shitty 3rd party coding in general, but I also think this furthers my thought that I'll just wait out Android in general until it has some more time to ripen.

[jarvismb]

Except it's not unique...

I just went into a reply without seeing this post, but I assure you, it is unique.

Just because someone says SOC, doesn't mean the same thing, and this is one of those cases.

[fusion]

Unfortunately, the term system-on-chip is used more often than I go off-roading, and it's always in refernce to different things each time. The SOC that the A4 uses refers to the only ARM architecture I know of that is self-sufficient in terms of basic operation (i.e. not dependent on external memory), and has the additional benefits of the media decoding and graphics decoding of the Cortex-A8. The chip used in the Nexus One is called a SOC by Qualcomm, but it's just referring to cell and wifi transceivers and some graphics & media decoders. It's not in reference to having built-in memory, like the A4.

Except no. Last I read the A4 doesn't have its RAM in the processor either, it's attached.

And I should've know better, honestly...

Yes, yes you should have.

Here's where perhaps I've been a bit liberal with my exclusive use of the term kernel. I think maybe I should have been referring to the OS in general, because you are right, the underlying kernel is decently sound, but it's the kernel's peripheral interactions that (to be honest) kind of suck so far in current devices. Examples:

The UI animations aren't as fluid as they should be, so there's some sort of process priority preemption that needs to be sorted out between the base kernel and the thread scheduler.

The touchscreen (and thereby the base UI input tasks) reactions aren't what they need to be. Again, maybe this is driver-related, therefore it's more upper level, but it could also be a lower-level problem in the thread scheduler. This kind of thing requires a more gifted Android knowledge base than I have, but it still a question I have.

But I will say that the multi-tasking nature of the kernel is where it should be able to shine, and in terms of running the underlying system, and memory management, it does great, so the potential is there. I think they just need some time to get their peripheral interactions right before I buy. This also goes right into my agreement with your point of shitty 3rd party coding in general, but I also think this furthers my thought that I'll just wait out Android in general until it has some more time to ripen.

Here we mostly agree I think. Most of the problem though is that the Android OS unfortunately sits a level higher than the iPhone's to allow for compatibility. IMHO I think this is what causes most of the lag. Apps and the UI cross an additional layer to do about anything. If they locked down to a single hardware platform and version the lag would be completely gone. FWIW my Dad has an Incredible and the lag is almost completely non-existent on it so I'm anxious to try out the X and Shadow.

[fusion]

I just went into a reply without seeing this post, but I assure you, it is unique.

Just because someone says SOC, doesn't mean the same thing, and this is one of those cases.

Wiki since I'm lazy and trying to get of here to start my vaca: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A4

[jarvismb]

ok, let's get some nomenclature straight - I realize the RAM is not IN the CPU. It's an ARM. ARM's don't have RAM IN the CPU. What it does have it two RAM substrates wire-bonded to the CPU bus inside the same package. This is what's unique.

[that dude]

Apple ftw . Hate on haters!