Scruit Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I know that a police officer ha the authority to direct traffic, even against traffic signs. Accident scenes, etc.But here's the situation. I work at a company that often hosts evens for members of the public. On these days the roads leading to the parking lot are busy. They usually have a security guard standing in the 4-way stop directing traffic (mostly to let visitors know where to go).He will wave people to continue through the stop sign without stopping and will yell at you if you stop at the stop sign (as required by law).So, take this is a legal thought experiment, not a "I don't know what to do" kind of thing...If there is an accident as a result of one car being waved through the stop sign without stopping and another car that doesn't realize traffic is being directed... Who is at fault?I believe that a civilian cannot override the stop sign and, just like when "someone waves you out", the ultimate responsibility to comply with traffic laws is on you. If you are waved through the stop sign and hit another car who was expecting you to stop, then YOU are at fault. The guy directing traffic is the reason for the accident, but not an excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomike Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I think you might be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixxie750 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 If the person directing traffic has all the correct gear on and signage then he is in charge. He also has to take a course and be certified in a ODOT traffic class (20hr). I had to do this years ago to flag traffic for construction. If he was just in normal clothes and not wearing YELLOW and have a flag,sign,or light he is not legally in charge. I went 12 years ago so things may have changed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 If the person directing traffic has all the correct gear on and signage then he is in charge. He also has to take a course and be certified in a ODOT traffic class (20hr). I had to do this years ago to flag traffic for construction. If he was just in normal clothes and not wearing YELLOW and have a flag,sign,or light he is not legally in charge. I went 12 years ago so things may have changed...Can you cite the legal authority that you have to overrule a traffic sign?(Not trying to be snarky - genuinly asking. If there is a program where someone can become authorized to direct traffic then the security guard is doing nothing wrong)Police authority to override stop signs:ORC 4511.43 (A) Except when directed to proceed by a law enforcement officer, every driver of a vehicle or trackless trolley approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simplysix Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 seems a lot like the "someone waves you out" thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jst2fst Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 seems a lot like the "someone waves you out" thread thats what i was thinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Very similar. The difference is that when this person waves you out you HAVE to go. Or do you?Discuss.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I'm looking right now to see what I can find. Haven't come across anything in the code yet. I did find this article but it does take place in CA and not OH.http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/09/09/citizen-ticketed-for-directing-traffic-after-police-fail-to-in-south-pasadena/Trying to find any case law about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I cannot find anything that states other that a LEO can direct traffic. If I had to guess, I would say that if something would happen, the person directing would be subject to charges as well as the motorist at fault. No idea what the courts might say.If someone other than a LEO was directing traffic say, at a crash scene, I would venture the courts, and probably LE, would take the discretion not to file charges. The person was acting in good faith in a dangerous situation. Totality of the circumstances applies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I cannot find anything that states other that a LEO can direct traffic. If I had to guess, I would say that if something would happen, the person directing would be subject to charges as well as the motorist at fault. No idea what the courts might say.If someone other than a LEO was directing traffic say, at a crash scene, I would venture the courts, and probably LE, would take the discretion not to file charges. The person was acting in good faith in a dangerous situation. Totality of the circumstances applies.so...youre saying prez is lying about taking a training course through odot?not sure why somebody would make that up out of the blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 so...youre saying prez is lying about taking a training course through odot?not sure why somebody would make that up out of the blueNo, I'm saying I can't find anything that authorizes anyone other than a LEO to direct traffic. He also says:I went 12 years ago so things may have changed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Understood. I have directed traffic at accident scenes before. Most recently when a car hit a deer outside my house at night - I directed traffic past the disable car for 30 minutes until the trooper showed up. Once he got there I left it to him. He never said anything good or bad about it. Given the circumstances I believe it was the right thing to do.I have also directed traffic at a serious accident where 3 people wound up being transported by EMS. Nobody had a problem with it and the police thanked me in that case.But those were accidents. At work it's just a public event so there is no danger being averted. They just don't want the public to mistakenly drive up to the main building on the campus - they want them to go to the convention center instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Massachusetts specifically states that civilian construction crew flaggers must be obeyed, but gives them no power to write tickets or force compliance. If seen disobeying the flagger then a cop could presumably ticket you for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Found this:http://www.workzonesafety.org/node/6373Currently no flagger training or certification appears to be required in the state - although ODOT does train its own flaggers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewsBrews Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Can a cop even realy ticket you for stopping for 3 seconds? Doesn't seem long enough for any sort of obstructing traffic violation. If there isn't anyone coming I'd go, but if there is you'd bet I'll stop. I don't care what they "want" me to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FZRMatt Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I know that a police officer ha the authority to direct traffic, even against traffic signs. Accident scenes, etc.But here's the situation. I work at a company that often hosts evens for members of the public. On these days the roads leading to the parking lot are busy. They usually have a security guard standing in the 4-way stop directing traffic (mostly to let visitors know where to go).He will wave people to continue through the stop sign without stopping and will yell at you if you stop at the stop sign (as required by law).So, take this is a legal thought experiment, not a "I don't know what to do" kind of thing...If there is an accident as a result of one car being waved through the stop sign without stopping and another car that doesn't realize traffic is being directed... Who is at fault?I believe that a civilian cannot override the stop sign and, just like when "someone waves you out", the ultimate responsibility to comply with traffic laws is on you. If you are waved through the stop sign and hit another car who was expecting you to stop, then YOU are at fault. The guy directing traffic is the reason for the accident, but not an excuse.I looked this up several years ago, and I will need to do it again because I don't remember 100%. But I believe that the only civilian who can direct traffic legally is a (believe it or not) a school crossing guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FZRMatt Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Just wanted to drop by and remind you that police officers are civilians.Not in the eyes of the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I believe Scruit's initial assessment is correct, but that the person directing traffic incurs most of the liability.They're asserting authority, whether it's valid or not.Like most areas of law though, there's an argument on both sides.If you're the driver who gets waved through, and then causes the accident, your defense is, "this guy waved me. he was wearing a vest, and took on the responsibility of directing traffic. My belief that he had authority was reasonable." The driver of the blameless vehicle ought to be suing both parties, frankly. Throw it all at the wall and see what sticks. depending on who causes the accident, there's a good chance they have more money than the person who is employed directing traffic... Now if they sue the COMPANY who they're directing traffic for, that's a different story. Liability through agency(?). A jury would decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomike Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 All's well and good as long as there is no wreck or anything. That's when things start getting tenuous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeefZah Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Is this 4 way stop sign on private property? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Is this 4 way stop sign on private property?It is a public road leading up the 4way in one direction only. Other 3 are private roads.Clears things up, no? Stop signs on private roads are generally not cited for, but one of them is public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Are you classified as "military"?http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilianci·vil·ian /sɪˈvɪlyən/ Show Spelled[si-vil-yuhn] Show IPA noun 1. a person who is not on active duty with a military' date=' naval, police, or fire fighting organization. (My emphasis)http://www.thefreedictionary.com/civilianhttp://www.answers.com/topic/civilianhttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian (definition 2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 can you get a ticket for running stop signs in parking lots? like kroger, etc?someone told me they got ticketed for it, but i also heard you couldnt be...fzrmatt, edumacate me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 can you get a ticket for running stop signs in parking lots? like kroger, etc?someone told me they got ticketed for it, but i also heard you couldnt be...fzrmatt, edumacate me!The only offenses I've heard of being ticketed on private property would be DUI, Reckless Op (donuts!) and Hit-skip. Possibly running the stop sign at the exit of a private subdivision, becuase ORC specifically allows the owner of said property to have police enforce it.A friend of mine told me his wife was hit by someone who ran a stop sign at Easton Mall but the officer refused to cite and gave them a private property accident form. Told her the road was private, not public therefore no cite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beegreenstrings Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 He will wave people to continue through the stop sign without stopping and will yell at you if you stop at the stop sign (as required by law).So, take this is a legal thought experiment, not a "I don't know what to do" kind of thing...If there is an accident as a result of one car being waved through the stop sign without stopping and another car that doesn't realize traffic is being directed... Who is at fault?I believe that a civilian cannot override the stop sign and, just like when "someone waves you out", the ultimate responsibility to comply with traffic laws is on you. If you are waved through the stop sign and hit another car who was expecting you to stop, then YOU are at fault. The guy directing traffic is the reason for the accident, but not an excuse.I would think yes he can do this. However. you should get a permit from the county or state depending on routes involved to do so. He would most likely need the putrid yellow reflective vest that stated traffic control; I am almost positive that would be in the permit as well. (being one that applies for these said permits all the time... However, from a legal side of it... I can claim NO accountablility).As just a civilian doing this. You can in the case of accidents to help out until authorities arrive at the scene. But, long term I do not believe so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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