social conservatives: what does "conservative values" mean to you?

[magley64]

This was mentioned in another thread today, but I hear it a lot, and I would like someone to decipher the code for me.

what does "Consevative values" mean? Is it like an old codgery meaningless, "things were better in the 50's!" or "back in my day when kids respected their elders, and everything could be bought for a nickel"

what do conservatives value that nobody else values?

or is it just PC language for bigotry and intolerance?

Edited December 27, 2011 by magley64

[Cheech]

Cognitive dissonance.

[jblosser]

what do conservatives value that nobody else values?

or is it just PC language for bigotry and intolerance?

With those two sentences, it would seem that your mind is already made up and you won't accept anything that doesn't conform to your preconceived ideas...

[magley64]

With those two sentences, it would seem that your mind is already made up and you won't accept anything that doesn't conform to your preconceived ideas...

quite the contrary, I'm looking for alternatives...

so far, every time I hear one of the candidates claim to be a "social conservative" it means they hate muslims and gays...

I'm really trying to keep an open mind, and ask if there are any alternative definitions for the term.

[Cheech]

quite the contrary, I'm looking for alternatives...

so far, every time I hear one of the candidates claim to be a "social conservative" it means they hate muslims and gays...

I'm really trying to keep an open mind, and ask if there are any alternative definitions for the term.

Blosser's got a point though, those sentences would be perceived as you already making your mind up.

[magley64]

Blosser's got a point though, those sentences would be perceived as you already making your mind up.

Well, that's been the impression so far,

[Rod38um]

quite the contrary, I'm looking for alternatives...

so far, every time I hear one of the candidates claim to be a "social conservative" it means they hate muslims and gays...

I'm really trying to keep an open mind, and ask if there are any alternative definitions for the term.

Um, thats not an open mind. If someone doesn't believe in gay marriage, that doesnt mean they hate gays. If someone doesn't trust folks of a religion that gives reward point in heaven for killing folks who dont share their beliefs, it doesn't mean they hate them.

You sound as if you already have made up your mind.

[magley64]

You sound as if you already have made up your mind.

well, clearly nobody has given me any alternative definition, so how am I supposed to change my mind?

[Cheech]

well, clearly nobody has given me any alternative definition, so how am I supposed to change my mind?

Allow me to re-frame your question.

This was mentioned in another thread today, but I hear it a lot: what does "Conservative values" mean? I hear it thrown around a lot amongst Republicans, especially at the debates. It seems that the candidates are all trying to "out-values" each other, but I'm not entirely sure what those values are to begin with. Could anyone elaborate on this?

[magley64]

reframe looks great...

[magley64]

If someone doesn't trust folks of a religion that gives reward point in heaven for killing folks who dont share their beliefs, it doesn't mean they hate them.

by that right, we shouldn't trust christians...

Luke19:26- 27:For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

honestly... all the abrahamic religions have vague verses in them that can be twisted to suit whatever your pre-concieved notions of the world are....

Edited December 28, 2011 by magley64

[Cheech]

Can I get some hath? I hear that stuff is the shiz, forsooth.

[Rod38um]

Social conservatism to me?

Its several things:

I believe that social programs and project housing designed to help a target group ultimately do more harm than good and have led to the life long enslavement of many of the folks they were designed to help.

I believe that a job and earning your way helps to foster a sense of pride and responsibility that in turn gets passed on to your children by example.

I believe honesty, morality and self reliance should be promoted but I dont want laws designed to prevent me from being capable of committing a crime, These always lead to a loss of freedoms. I simply want those who do commit crimes to be held accountable. I believe it is the governments roll to create an environment where business can flourish. We should have low corporate tax. Regulation that protects our environment but does not require you to hire three law firms to decode it before starting up a manufacturing business. A strong military and consistent guide lines on infrastructure. I dont want my tax dollars to be spent supporting an able bodied person for life. I dont want my tax dollars spent on abortion or research grants or art or any number of other pet projects designed to get someone re-elected.I want the freedom of religion the constitution provides not freedom from religion that some try to twist it into. I dont want special rights or special laws for any group of people, fix that and I wont tolerate any kind of discrimination either.

Those are a few off the top of my head. I might add more later..... cleaning guns now.

[magley64]

wow, surprise surprise, I agree with most of these...

this one I have issue with... and I'm not sure how you can differenciate between the two...

"I want the freedom of religion the constitution provides not freedom from religion that some try to twist it into."

How do you define "freedom" if it's not the free exercise to partake,or not partake as you see fit. therefore freedom OF religion must include freedom FROM religion. just as silence must be protected as free speech.

[Rod38um]

I dont want the government to tell me I have to follow a certain religion. I also dont want them to tell my kid that he cant wear a cross around his neck at school, simply because its government building (which I would like to put schools in private hands also) I dont mind seeing a jewish person wearing their little hat thing, I dont mind seeing a muslim wear his robe. I dont mind if you dont believe at all but dont try to prevent me from practicing mine.

Silence is free speech but you cant expect to force others into silence, your right to be silent is just protected like your right not to practice religion. You still will see others practice it.

[magley64]

I dont want the government to tell me I have to follow a certain religion. I also dont want them to tell my kid that he cant wear a cross around his neck at school, simply because its government building

There are no laws restricting your child from wearing a cross at school, none...

(which I would like to put schools in private hands also)

We have those, they are called "private schools" they cost money, please pay them and send your child there.

I dont mind seeing a jewish person wearing their little hat thing, I dont mind seeing a muslim wear his robe. I dont mind if you dont believe at all but dont try to prevent me from practicing mine.

Silence is free speech but you cant expect to force others into silence, your right to be silent is just protected like your right not to practice religion. You still will see others practice it.

All of this is fine, as long as my "public" money isn't used to promote religions I disagree with, or at bare minimum, public money is available for equal access among all religious views.

Edited December 28, 2011 by magley64

[Rod38um]

There are no laws restricting your child from wearing a cross at school, none...

True but we often have children sent home for doing exactly this because of schools interpretation a court ruling phrase "seperation of church and state" instead of the constitution wording of: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

We have those, they are called "private schools" they cost money, please pay them and send your child there.

True. I would like them all to be private. louisiana tried it after the flood in order quickly get people back into school. They contracted it out. each kid was worth X amount. Several contractors stepped up, they hired the best teachers they could find and paid them well, they were able to easily fire the bad ones. Several contractors rose to the top quickly because the kids enjoyed learning from a good teacher and the schools were motivated to do well in order to attract students. There were no limits on what school your kid went to. It has been the biggest success in our nations school history. Former bad students from poor minority areas are now producing some of the best scores in the nation. We need a system that works this well in order to compete on a world stage.

All of this is fine, as long as my "public" money isn't used to promote religions I disagree with, or at bare minimum, public money is available for equal access among all religious views.

I dont want my tax dollars paying for it either. The fewer things the government is involved in the smaller revenue stream it requires= the lower the taxes can be= the more business we can attract= the more jobs we have= the more people we have sharing in the tax burden= the better off we all are!

[Cheech]

There are no laws restricting your child from wearing a cross at school, none...

We have those, they are called "private schools" they cost money, please pay them and send your child there.

All of this is fine, as long as my "public" money isn't used to promote religions I disagree with, or at bare minimum, public money is available for equal access among all religious views.

Dude, you asked the question. Berating him when he responds is, in this interweb commentator's opinion, bad form.

[magley64]

Dude, you asked the question. Berating him when he responds is, in this interweb commentator's opinion, bad form.

was that berating? i apologize if it was...

i'm on cold meds... so my head's not exactly on straight right now.

I thought we were just agreeing

[Cheech]

That being said, I have a few follow-ups of my own.

First, I know you and I have had our differences in the past, Rod. Thanks for answering these, seriously.

I believe honesty, morality and self reliance should be promoted but I dont want laws designed to prevent me from being capable of committing a crime, These always lead to a loss of freedoms.

What systems of morality and ethics (I'll lump that in with honesty) are you suggesting be promoted. There are quite a few, I was wondering which you would prefer to be promoted to the country as a whole.

I believe it is the governments roll to create an environment where business can flourish. We should have low corporate tax.

Seeing as corporations are "people", what would you consider to be a fair corporate tax, would that be higher or lower than the taxes levied on a middle-class worker and why?

A strong military and consistent guide lines on infrastructure.

Can you dive further into this? What would you consider to be a "strong" military, and what purpose would they serve? Also, what does "consistent guidelines on infrastructure" mean?

[magley64]

True but we often have children sent home for doing exactly this because of schools interpretation a court ruling phrase "seperation of church and state" instead of the constitution wording of: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

I agree, that's wrong...

True. I would like them all to be private. louisiana tried it after the flood in order quickly get people back into school. They contracted it out. each kid was worth X amount. Several contractors stepped up, they hired the best teachers they could find and paid them well, they were able to easily fire the bad ones. Several contractors rose to the top quickly because the kids enjoyed learning from a good teacher and the schools were motivated to do well in order to attract students. There were no limits on what school your kid went to. It has been the biggest success in our nations school history. Former bad students from poor minority areas are now producing some of the best scores in the nation. We need a system that works this well in order to compete on a world stage.

While an all private school system would improve performance for some, I anticipate there would be bigger problems with poor schools in impoverished areas than we already have.

I dont want my tax dollars paying for it either. The fewer things the government is involved in the smaller revenue stream it requires= the lower the taxes can be= the more business we can attract= the more jobs we have= the more people we have sharing in the tax burden= the better off we all are!

agree

[Rod38um]

What systems of morality and ethics (I'll lump that in with honesty) are you suggesting be promoted. There are quite a few, I was wondering which you would prefer to be promoted to the country as a whole.

Where you are going is why I didnt say mandated or promoted by the government. If we have economic success, jobs are readily available, life long programs are not. Those factors promote a sense of fair play, reap what you sow, respect others type of atmosphere. When you have to earn your stuff and your way, most people respect their own stuff and the other person doing the same. Its tough for a kid born to a broken home in a project housing, on gov assistance, with nobody he knows working, friends or family with nothing to do all day but drugs or other trouble to ever attain those values. That system, though it was designed to help those people, has in fact enslaved them to it.

Seeing as corporations are "people", what would you consider to be a fair corporate tax, would that be higher or lower than the taxes levied on a middle-class worker and why?

The consumer ultimately pays for all taxes whether its from being directly taxed or from paying higher product costs when high corporate tax and capitol gains taxes are passed on to the price of the product. The difference is that when you over tax a corporation, they have to raise the product price to the point that they cant compete over seas. When that happens, they generally fold or move over seas, taking those jobs with them. Then we are left with fewer tax payers so again the taxes must be raised. Its a cycle that just pushes jobs over seas. Jobs are our biggest problem right now. We all want environmental protection. That in itself is not a problem, its that our current laws are so confusing that anyone looking to start a business has to hire a few law firms to sort thru it all. Simplify the laws

Lower the corporate tax rate 10% and 0% for the first 5 years for any foreign company setting up manufacturing here that will sell a product overseas.

Cut the capital gains tax in half

Business would come flooding back into the US and jobs would be everywhere. People would be paying taxes into the treasury instead of living off of the treasury.

Can you dive further into this? What would you consider to be a "strong" military, and what purpose would they serve? Also, what does "consistent guidelines on infrastructure" mean?

I want to maintain world dominance militarily. I dont want to be the world police but I do see a need for many foreign operations. Those should be decided by congress on a case by case basis. Just like the locks on your door, your dog that barks, the gun in your drawer, the sheriffs department we pay for, it does no good to have anything if you cant protect it.

We need consistent guidelines on roads, signs air travel, shipping, etc. But we dont need the federal government to run these things. Its almost always faster, cheaper and a better product or end result when privatized unless the government sticks its nose in and dictates who can do a job.

[Rod38um]

While an all private school system would improve performance for some, I anticipate there would be bigger problems with poor schools in impoverished areas than we already have.

Thats the beauty of the system. Since each kid is worth the X amount. there is the same incentive in poor areas as in rich. since its not the government, bad teachers are fired, good teachers are rewarded enough to keep them from leaving. A school that doesn't perform wont have the kids, wont have the dollars, cant survive. It has already worked in one of the worst areas in the nation....... I'd like to at least try it........ the system we have now sure isn't working. I'm not trying to argue though. Just presenting my social conservative views.

[magley64]

Thats the beauty of the system. Since each kid is worth the X amount. there is the same incentive in poor areas as in rich. since its not the government, bad teachers are fired, good teachers are rewarded enough to keep them from leaving. A school that doesn't perform wont have the kids, wont have the dollars, cant survive. It has already worked in one of the worst areas in the nation....... I'd like to at least try it........ the system we have now sure isn't working. I'm not trying to argue though. Just presenting my social conservative views.

I think it's a good idea....but who pays the X amount?

[Rod38um]

I think it's a good idea....but who pays the X amount?

It comes from the same funding it does now only you need less of it due to the lower cost of privatizing. Some call it the voucher system. Its recognized as a compromise between total privatization and the socialist bureaucracy we have now.