Project: Endurance Bike/Team and template for future teams

[r1crusher]

Now accepting donations for suprize buttsecks on Brian's KTM.

Paypal to briansbuttsecks@ktms.now

[r1crusher]

Ill pay you to do this for me.

What guy...I mean bike will you be riding?

[jbot]

There are some serious issues you need to address as priority.

1) Budget. You really should do everything in advance. We essentially sat down and sorted EVERY detail we could think of from bike to entry fees to tires oil to truck maintenance to food to crashes, etc. Once you have a figure that is realistic, you need to divide it by the number of riders. That is your target and really, what you should get up front.

However, a lot of guys are not going to be able to pony that and what we did was take the amount and do 1/2 from each rider. That was still a big chunk, but what it allowed for was to cover things that popped up on us in say, round three of ten... Know what I mean?

2) Bikes. Yes, bikes plural. To do endurance the right way, you need 2-3 bikes total. One, seat time. Try splitting the limited endurance practices. Doesn't work well. 10 minutes each? Really? Two bikes minimum and allows for the most seat time for set up and practice. Fastest guy stays out the longest if need be to do set up. Or, best set up guy. You get the idea...

The other idea behind two bikes is two fold. Spares. Crash replacement. You crash and total the "A" bike and have 2 hours and 45 minutes left, you need a "B" bike. 30 minutes to go? Nope...

Finally, the bikes have to come from someone. DO NOT split a bike or bikes. Unless you have two bikes and two guys each buy one. The reason is if the bike/s is/are split three ways for example and one gets totaled, what do you do? But, if a guy buys a bike, that lessens his cost of the split. In other words, anyone that thinks they can do a Moto Series round for $300 each rider ($900) total is insane.

Here's a break down:

Bike maintaining expense - $20 ($60 min oil - 4 qts)

Bike maintaining expense - $3+ ($9-$10 filter)

Bike maintaining expense - $30-$40 each ($100-$120 a set brake pads)

Bike maintaining expense - $30 chain (Three chains for 9 rounds at $100 each)

Bike maintaining expense - $200-$265 tires (two sets @ $300 - $400/set. No way you can do one set per weekend...)

Entry fees - $94 entry fees - ($250 per round plus $10 gate fee)

Food - $10 each (water, cold sandwiches, snacks, etc.)

Fuel - $27/each - 20+ gallons for practice and race (3.5 gallons plus per 45 minutes so, 4 fill ups.)

JUST to run the race, you are looking at about $400-$450 each per round to just do that. Not including the truck oil change, fuel for the ride up and back, hotel, dinner, breakfast, wear and tear cost on bike, etc.

Also, you need to consider these costs:

Spares - wheels, radiator, clip-ons, rearsets, bodywork, etc. You really need to consider a second bike really, but if not, these are MINIMUM to have on hand. You are looking at anywhere from $800-$1000 plus or $300-ish each just to start the season.

Then, you need to make sure the bike is fresh at the end of the season. Price motor refreshening and you will find that you'll have another $700 plus each. This gets the bike back where it started. As it should be...

Now, you are looking at a 9 round season costing each rider (Moto Series) to be around $4500-$5k or about $15k a season total... Just to give you an idea, to do a WERA National season, we were running close to $40-$45k a season... Divided by 3-4 riders depending on the race length. Easily.

That was 3 bikes for the most part depending on the model changes and what Kawasaki could send us, having a substantial parts budget that was free and free allocation of tires up to a set number total. We had free oil, free plastics, free pads, etc . All motors were a superbike build and had top end components with custom quick change and high capacity fuel tanks with quick fill setup.

You also have to get your head around a crash repair. What do you do?

It is a team, guys. 3 riders? Split a crash 3 ways. Now, rider goes out and bone heads another rider and totals the bike because he was an idiot, he pays. Simple. But, team is a team and the payment needs to be split.

Now, again... the guy who buys the bike may be a lesser amount. At the end of the year, in refreshes, etc., it was equal as he raced the bike equally. Think if totaled. If a $10k bike is totaled, he has a pile of aluminum.

Then, contingency... Split three ways and is handed out every check. DO NOT think to cover expenses with contingency. DO NOT bank on winning, an amount, etc... It is a year end spoil.

That's it for now that I remember...

all very excellent points.

we have a lot to think about.

thanks for taking the time to write that up. if you think of any more stuff that came up from when you were doing the team endurance racing, please share.

thanks

[ducatihottie999]

If its your bike and you are absorbing the cost of the spares then you can sell them when you are donne racing. I didnt ask my team to pay for spares i just bought them and if they crash they just paid me for the psares they used. There are a lot of differernt ways to set up the team.

We are a shoestring budget like most racers racing in motoseries. I think the above post is fair but on the HIGH side. It only costs us 300 a piece. And we haul a fifth wheel and eat WELL! Of course we dont drink either lol. So dont be afraid to set up a shoestring budget for your first year. And on the bike sharing thing... all my partners have thier own bikes to practice on. Granted they are not the same model or make but similar. I dont know of many teams past or present that have run more than 1 bike in endurance for motoseries/fasttrax unless they had big sponsors. Great read though thanks!

[redkow97]

I believe Brian that it takes that kind of budget to do it "right" and compete for wins, but at our level, just getting our feet wet, I think we could ride, finish, and have fun for a bit less.

I am by no means volunteering my bike (because I probably can't afford to throw in on a team this season), but several of us have 03-06 CBR 600's that are are 80-90% identical...

Off the top of my head, I know Jinu's old bike and my bike are the same generation, Tyler's is the same, except with inverted forks, and Imprez55 has another first gen 600RR as well.

...but all that said, we might do better with a smaller, slower, less expensive to run bike.

SV650, or even EX500 endurance? Tires are cheaper for slower bikes. And when you're pulling 30-60 minute stints, I would plan on my pace being 3+ seconds slower than normal. Street tires (insert your favorite brand here) might wear better and will cost less. Obviously we'd have to restrain ourselves from going all-out on tires that will get greasey at full pace, but as noted, I don't think any of us can really pull race pace for more than 20 minutes at a time anyway.

if we did stick with a 600 (the fact that people already have them is nice), it's at least something we're used to, but more power, more speed, etc. only increases costs.

[blue03636]

...but all that said, we might do better with a smaller, slower, less expensive to run bike.

As for the slower part, that is why we were looking at Jinu's old honda, I'm sure it's not putting out the power it use to.

[jbot]

i'm not sure how "for serial" the rest of the group wants to take the racing effort, but I'm guessing we'll probably aim for the "have fun and get feet wet" type effort. However, I believe everything Brian and Ducattihottie noted apply to our little start up, just on varying scales.

I'll start up conversations with brandon, craig, and whoever is going to be our 4th (and maybe a 5th? seems one too many though) to discuss how we want to approach it.

and i know others have shown interest in doing something similar in this thread and the nelson thread. feel free to post up and organize.

[TRMN8TR]

I'm thinking more of a "just the tip" kind of effort. Pretty much the same as "getting feet wet" except it involves woman parts instead of cold, wet feet in the comparison.

I don't think we're aiming to win any championships. Heck, we are already a round and almost 100 laps behind. I was thinking more like 1 bike, some spare parts in case of a minor crash that is easily repairable, and hoping we don't have to cross the blown engine or totalled bike bridges. We can talk details later but just throwing out my expectations, which are rather low.

[grapesmuggler27]

now accepting donations for suprize buttsecks with brian on his ktm.

Paypal to briansbuttsecks@ktms.now

fify!

[r1crusher]

Either way.....

....I'm gettin' some.

[Moto-Brian]

If its your bike and you are absorbing the cost of the spares then you can sell them when you are donne racing. I didnt ask my team to pay for spares i just bought them and if they crash they just paid me for the psares they used. There are a lot of differernt ways to set up the team.

We are a shoestring budget like most racers racing in motoseries. I think the above post is fair but on the HIGH side. It only costs us 300 a piece. And we haul a fifth wheel and eat WELL! Of course we dont drink either lol. So dont be afraid to set up a shoestring budget for your first year. And on the bike sharing thing... all my partners have thier own bikes to practice on. Granted they are not the same model or make but similar. I dont know of many teams past or present that have run more than 1 bike in endurance for motoseries/fasttrax unless they had big sponsors. Great read though thanks!

No way you are doing it for $300 each. No way. Using shit take offs will get you through, but the next round, if you used take offs in round one and a fresh set for the race, both are done for. If you are practicing on those same take offs or dare I say the race set, you are not getting what you need out of it. So, you need two brand new sets for round 2 and can maybe get by with using the practice set again the 3rd round, but the race set after 3 hours needs to be thrown away. So, even if you are using cheaper tires and are getting them for $300 a set, that's $600 for round two. That's $200 each and that doesn't count the entry fees, gate fees, fuel, oil, etc...

As for the bike, if you are absorbing the parts, the wear and tear and everything, sign me up. That's not the way to really do it and among the guys asking, I think they need to make sure that they get everything sorted prior and done the right way or the first crash can end the team and their friendship. I've watched race teams fold due to these issues...

Also, another separation from casual team to serious team is the fact that if other riders are riding something different than your bike, they are wasting time. Learning lines maybe, but you have a larger tank. That feels different, causes the bike to handle differently, etc. They need that seat time on that bike at that track.

Not being a dick here, but I have been doing this for almost 18 years. I've raced a few notable series and while Fasttrax was cool and every time we entered a race at Mid-Ohio or similar, we beat all the "established" teams, we were organized and well ran. Yes, we had support, we had freebies, but we still had expenses and we needed to get those sorted. The best team I ever talked to about these things was AOD and Sam Flemming as well as Mark Junge. A couple of fairly well regarded endurance guys... Point is that there are expenses that are typically missed and when you get home, that $300 is actually a lot more. You do that for 9 rounds and all of a sudden, you've burned an extra $1k you never expected. Credit Cards get jacked and when the crash happens, you need to add that up also...

Reality is a bitch. Anyone that thinks they can do it on $300 a round is not really looking at the whole picture. But, for these guys, I'd sign up for Ducatis team and pay $300 a round. You'll never get by cheaper than that.

And, if you don't have a bike and need one, that is something you need to figure out as to who is getting it, how you'll maintain it and who pays for the extras needed...

[Moto-Brian]

I believe Brian that it takes that kind of budget to do it "right" and compete for wins, but at our level, just getting our feet wet, I think we could ride, finish, and have fun for a bit less.

I am by no means volunteering my bike (because I probably can't afford to throw in on a team this season), but several of us have 03-06 CBR 600's that are are 80-90% identical...

Off the top of my head, I know Jinu's old bike and my bike are the same generation, Tyler's is the same, except with inverted forks, and Imprez55 has another first gen 600RR as well.

...but all that said, we might do better with a smaller, slower, less expensive to run bike.

SV650, or even EX500 endurance? Tires are cheaper for slower bikes. And when you're pulling 30-60 minute stints, I would plan on my pace being 3+ seconds slower than normal. Street tires (insert your favorite brand here) might wear better and will cost less. Obviously we'd have to restrain ourselves from going all-out on tires that will get greasey at full pace, but as noted, I don't think any of us can really pull race pace for more than 20 minutes at a time anyway.

if we did stick with a 600 (the fact that people already have them is nice), it's at least something we're used to, but more power, more speed, etc. only increases costs.

No, you are right. You could do it for less. But, if you fall for the ol' dream price and wake up finding you burnt more than you expected, it's a bitch, man.

Also, you get charged $35/bike extra for practice. So, three bikes is an additional $70 or $35 each of the other two riders.

An SV is a better choice. Better on tires, with a larger tank, they can run forever on a tank and you are going to have lower costs of repair and replacement.

Another BIG note - DO NOT PIT to satisfy equal seat time. I see this a LOT with casual teams and first timers. You pit when the time comes to get fuel. We'd run 1-1/2 hours on a tank of fuel. We'd run a 4 hour race with 3 guys and the fastest guy runs first, second fastest next and third fastest last. But, a 3 hour is really a two rider deal. If a big tank and running 1-1/2 hours a tank, one stop. Maybe a splash at the end and a hot sprint to the checker. But, on a stock size tank, you'd get about 45-55 minutes a tank. So, three guys can pull it off and have a fresh rider each stint. Fastest guy cleans up on the last stint.

Tires wear out and need changed? Ride through the tire issue until the tank needs filled. When you come in for fuel, you get tires, but you NEVER come in early unless there is a major issue that needs fixed. You cannot win the race in the pits, but you sure as hell can lose it there...

3 Hour, three hits of fuel and four stints. If you go and try to do equal laps and seat time, you'll be screwed. But, not many teams so, you can pull it off... But, fastest guy gets the biggest load usually to maintain that pace and distance in front...

[jbot]

No, you are right. You could do it for less. But, if you fall for the ol' dream price and wake up finding you burnt more than you expected, it's a bitch, man.

Also, you get charged $35/bike extra for practice. So, three bikes is an additional $70 or $35 each of the other two riders.

An SV is a better choice. Better on tires, with a larger tank, they can run forever on a tank and you are going to have lower costs of repair and replacement.

Another BIG note - DO NOT PIT to satisfy equal seat time. I see this a LOT with casual teams and first timers. You pit when the time comes to get fuel. We'd run 1-1/2 hours on a tank of fuel. We'd run a 4 hour race with 3 guys and the fastest guy runs first, second fastest next and third fastest last. But, a 3 hour is really a two rider deal. If a big tank and running 1-1/2 hours a tank, one stop. Maybe a splash at the end and a hot sprint to the checker. But, on a stock size tank, you'd get about 45-55 minutes a tank. So, three guys can pull it off and have a fresh rider each stint. Fastest guy cleans up on the last stint.

Tires wear out and need changed? Ride through the tire issue until the tank needs filled. When you come in for fuel, you get tires, but you NEVER come in early unless there is a major issue that needs fixed. You cannot win the race in the pits, but you sure as hell can lose it there...

3 Hour, three hits of fuel and four stints. If you go and try to do equal laps and seat time, you'll be screwed. But, not many teams so, you can pull it off... But, fastest guy gets the biggest load usually to maintain that pace and distance in front...

we are fat and out of shape (or at least, i am) and probably can't do more than 40 minute stints (if even that)... what kinda exercises, training regimen did your team do to help with the endurance part of it?

if we dont figure this part out, we're going to probably abduct and go all cannibal on wayne's ass to steal his powers. (wayne being the giant greek on the r1 who does the 3hr by himself in case somebody doesn't know who i'm talking about)

[Moto-Brian]

we are fat and out of shape (or at least, i am) and probably can't do more than 40 minute stints (if even that)... what kinda exercises, training regimen did your team do to help with the endurance part of it?

if we dont figure this part out, we're going to probably abduct and go all cannibal on wayne's ass to steal his powers. (wayne being the giant greek on the r1 who does the 3hr by himself in case somebody doesn't know who i'm talking about)

We rode MX (Poorly, I might add) and a lot of MTB bike riding. Consistency is the goal. If your fastest lap is a 12 and the slowest a 14, running 13s and 12s is a goal. Trying to run 12s with your hair on fire is going to wear you out and towards the end of the stint, you'll be so worn out, your times will fall a ton.

[ama146]

what kind of times are we talking for a team member?

[ducatihottie999]

No way you are doing it for $300 each. No way. Using shit take offs will get you through, but the next round, if you used take offs in round one and a fresh set for the race, both are done for. If you are practicing on those same take offs or dare I say the race set, you are not getting what you need out of it. So, you need two brand new sets for round 2 and can maybe get by with using the practice set again the 3rd round, but the race set after 3 hours needs to be thrown away. So, even if you are using cheaper tires and are getting them for $300 a set, that's $600 for round two. That's $200 each and that doesn't count the entry fees, gate fees, fuel, oil, etc...

As for the bike, if you are absorbing the parts, the wear and tear and everything, sign me up. That's not the way to really do it and among the guys asking, I think they need to make sure that they get everything sorted prior and done the right way or the first crash can end the team and their friendship. I've watched race teams fold due to these issues...

Also, another separation from casual team to serious team is the fact that if other riders are riding something different than your bike, they are wasting time. Learning lines maybe, but you have a larger tank. That feels different, causes the bike to handle differently, etc. They need that seat time on that bike at that track.

Not being a dick here, but I have been doing this for almost 18 years. I've raced a few notable series and while Fasttrax was cool and every time we entered a race at Mid-Ohio or similar, we beat all the "established" teams, we were organized and well ran. Yes, we had support, we had freebies, but we still had expenses and we needed to get those sorted. The best team I ever talked to about these things was AOD and Sam Flemming as well as Mark Junge. A couple of fairly well regarded endurance guys... Point is that there are expenses that are typically missed and when you get home, that $300 is actually a lot more. You do that for 9 rounds and all of a sudden, you've burned an extra $1k you never expected. Credit Cards get jacked and when the crash happens, you need to add that up also...

Reality is a bitch. Anyone that thinks they can do it on $300 a round is not really looking at the whole picture. But, for these guys, I'd sign up for Ducatis team and pay $300 a round. You'll never get by cheaper than that.

And, if you don't have a bike and need one, that is something you need to figure out as to who is getting it, how you'll maintain it and who pays for the extras needed...

:bow:No I dont think you are being a dick, your thoughts are welcome that what this thread is for. Let me correct what i stated before .. Its "around" $300.00 and yes we do use the race tires for practice. We are able to do that because we dont practice a ton and we dont go fast enough to tear em up that bad. So $300 is conservative it tends to vary from $300 to $400 depending on parts and travel.