Cleveland Police Shooting

[Kennyb357]

Had they had a power commander on the Monte Carlo, this would have never happened.

[redkow97]

The relatives claim the car back-fired and wasn't running properly, but then the chase reached speeds in excess of 100mph?

That doesn't add up to me... I think the speeds are being exaggerated a bit. Maybe the police hit 100mph in pursuit, but tht car doesn't look capable of sustaining 100.

No new info reported locally today; just old video of the female passenger resisting arrest and threatening officers in the past. Lovely individuals.

[Gump]

Backfires happen from letting off the gas when too much fuel enters. Still plausible.

[magley64]

any POS will do 100... it takes a while, sure, but it's not as if most cars aren't capable...

My dune buggy, maybe not because of low gear ratio and low rev limit on a 53 hp engine... but still 90% of vehicles on the road can do 100.

[TSB67]

any POS will do 100...

My 1985.5 Ford Escort L would not do 100.

I haven't read this thread, just clicked on "Last page"

[redkow97]

any POS will do 100... it takes a while, sure, but it's not as if most cars aren't capable...

My dune buggy, maybe not because of low gear ratio and low rev limit on a 53 hp engine... but still 90% of vehicles on the road can do 100.

I'm not going to argue with you very hard, because I don't want the thread to get completely off-topic, but that surprises me.

I know those old chevy's have big 'ole V8's, but especially in the late 70's, I would have thought the emissions equipment really limited power. I'm talking under 200hp back in the day, and probably considerably worse now that it's 40 years old and poorly tuned. Combine that with the rolling-brick aerodynamics, and I am skeptical that it can reach 100mph.

But that's largely irrelevant to the saga itself, I was just pointing to it as a media sensationalism, or exaggeration of the facts on the part of the police.

Supposedly there are other witnesses coming forward, both from the Justice Center, and the neighborhood where the shooting occurred. I am hearing (yes, that's a rumor) that other people in the area surrounding the justice center are corroborating the officers' story that a gunshot or gunshot-like sound was heard at the time they claim.

At the end of the chase, there are obviously a lot more witnesses, because it's a neighborhood, and everything by the JC is a business, so there aren't nearly as many people there late at night.

[redkow97]

UPDATE:

I'm hearing from people at work (who are reading it online) that the Cleveland PD had pulled over the suspect vehicle TWICE in the hour or so prior to the chase.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/cleveland_police_pull_over_sus.html#incart_2box

The Plain Dealer has security camera video from their parking lot that shows one of the stops. The car is pulled over, and before the officer gets out to approach, it speeds off.

As noted, this allegedly happened twice. I'm not sure if it was the same car both times, or two different patrol cars that stopped them.

So when they went speeding by the justice center, that chase may still have been going on. Or it may have been called off, and the officers who allegedly heard the gun shot may have just recognized the description of the car based on prior radio transmissions.

I'm sure more will come out eventually. Still waiting on toxicology reports, and powder residue from the deceased.

[Tpoppa]

So...the 2 people killed were not armed. Mike Dewine is saying Cleveland police are out of control and lack leadership. A local congress woman is calling the police murderers. This should get interesting...

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/02/cleveland_police_chase_and_shooting_scene.html

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/East-Cleveland-Councilwoman-calls-police-chase-shooting-murder

[redkow97]

My prediction is that some will lose their jobs, a handful will get charged with dereliction of duty, and the city will settle wrongful death claims with both families.

Murder charge? All they have to do is show that the suspects intended to hit any police officer with their car (which is a pretty reasonable inference when they have led police on a chase, and both have cocaine in their system).

At that point, deadly force is justified. The fact that it was 137 bullets instead of 2 is reflexive of poor procedure, but not that the use of force is no less justified.

[Tonik]

My prediction is that some will lose their jobs, a handful will get charged with dereliction of duty, and the city will settle wrongful death claims with both families.

Murder charge? All they have to do is show that the suspects intended to hit any police officer with their car (which is a pretty reasonable inference when they have led police on a chase, and both have cocaine in their system).

At that point, deadly force is justified. The fact that it was 137 bullets instead of 2 is reflexive of poor procedure, but not that the use of force is no less justified.

I predict the shootings will be ruled as justified. There will be nothing more than 10 to 30 day suspensions for the 'rules' that were not followed. I doubt there will be many 30 day suspensions. The union will fight all of those and most if not all of them will be overturned and the officers will get back pay for the suspensions.

[redkow97]

I have met a CPD union rep, and that sounds about right.

Their attorney is a reasonable guy though. Pat knows when he's asking for the moon. But he's still obligated to ask - he just doesn't do it like an indignant jackass.

It's not personal for him. Good guy. Great attorney. I wouldn't be too shocked if he packs it up and retires after this case. It should pay well enough to accelerate his retirement time line!

[Tonik]

Their attorney is a reasonable guy though.

I don't and won't blame the attorney or the union when they all walk away scott free. I blame the elected officials that agreed to the contract.

[Bad324]

I don't and won't blame the attorney or the union when they all walk away scott free. I blame the elected officials that agreed to the contract.

and you know the people who elect those officials? The same kind of upstanding citizens that led police on this chase and were shot. Just saying...

[r1crusher]

Sounds like 2 families will be "movin' on up!" thanks to the city of Clevebang which will in turn be paid ultimately by it's citizens.

[Bad324]

Sounds like 2 families will be "movin' on up!" thanks to the city of Clevebang which will in turn be paid ultimately by it's citizens.

just what this city needs, more $30k millionaires

[redkow97]

and you know the people who elect those officials? The same kind of upstanding citizens that led police on this chase and were shot. Just saying...

and the union that endorsed them.

[redkow97]

Sounds like 2 families will be "movin' on up!" thanks to the city of Clevebang which will in turn be paid ultimately by it's citizens.

It will be a settlement, not a trial, and I would like the think the city will get off relatively cheap.

By the numbers, i'm betting neither of these two suspects made any meaningful financial contribution to their families, and given the amount of time they were either high or in jail, I can't believe they provided much consortium value to their families either.

that said, the grieving families' pain and suffering will be worth something. It will be over a million (before the attorneys get paid) so as not to look insulting, but no way it's more than five million. Frankly, I think a million is ridiculous.

from a financial standpoint, this is the best thing to ever happen to either family.

[motozachl]

I side with the cops. Criminals should've been shot even before the chase. These people were no good for society so eliminate them.

However there were an excessive amount of cars for this chase. According to protocol three was plenty but 63? That sh!ts absurd.

[motozachl]

from a financial standpoint, this is the best thing to ever happen to either family.

truth. and I gaurantee they don't give two cents for these worthless shards anyways

[cOoTeR]

I side with the cops. Criminals should've been shot even before the chase. These people were no good for society so eliminate them.

However there were an excessive amount of cars for this chase. According to protocol three was plenty but 63? That sh!ts absurd.

If something happened to one of the cops none of the others would want to be the guy who wasn't there to help.

[Tpoppa]

Fleeing is illegal, but does not justify the use of deadly force. When a chase puts the public in danger, CPD policy is to break off the chase to end the danger. This policy was not followed. To minimize the potential of public danger, another CPD policy is to limit the numer of chase vehicles to 2 unless specific orders call for more than 2 (there were 59 vehicles involved in this chase, more that 2 were not authorized).

The people killed were the ones who created the situation. However, through a series of not following proceedures, misinformation (like shots fired), and a few really stupid moves, the Police were the ones that escalated the situation into a shootout.

While the poeple killed were not the most upstanding citizens, police are not judge, jury, and executioner. Police are here to serve and protect the public, even the ones you may find unsavory.

If you follow the details of the actual shooting, the police basically encircled the vehilce and shots were fired (by police)...creating a crossfire. MANY POLICE VEHICLES WERE SHOT, BY THE POLICE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CIRCLE!!! An officer seeing bullets tearing through his car, would likely be inclined to return fire, escalating what is already a huge clusterfuck. It's really surprising that police weren't shot and killed by friendly fire. Scary.

[Tonik]

..the Police were the ones that escalated the situation into a shootout.

Exactly. And if you and I get into a argument and I escalate that situation into a shootout I will be charged and convicted of murder.

If you look at the State report there was one officer that repeatedly gave untrue information over the radio. He reported the passenger firing out the window with a gun, the passenger reloading, a collision with a patrol car during the chase and a blowout on the fleeing car.

None of it happened. With his inaccuracies he escalated this into a situation where all the rest of the officers thought they were in grave danger and that it was justified to shoot.

[r1crusher]

That's all probably true, but rewind this entire situation back to the very beginning. If the stupid driver would have simply pulled over when the cops first took after them none of this would have ever happened.

Cause and effect in my book. A bad decision followed by more bad decisions.

Now, I am in no way saying that the police were justified in the shooting.

[Tonik]

That's all probably true, but rewind this entire situation back to the very beginning. If the stupid driver would have simply pulled over when the cops first took after them none of this would have ever happened.

Cause and effect in my book. A bad decision followed by more bad decisions.

Now, I am in no way saying that the police were justified in the shooting.

I agree with that. But the police involved also need to pay a VERY heavy price for what they did. I am talking unemployment for a great many of them.

[redkow97]

Exactly. And if you and I get into a argument and I escalate that situation into a shootout I will be charged and convicted of murder.

Not accurate.

Using the car as a 4500 lbs bullet is deadly force, and responding with gun fire is equal force, not escalating the situation.