School shooting in Connecticut

[Brownsfan1]

^^^ +1

[Scruit]

We can't just say "nothing will work therefore we won't try".

I recognize that making guns harder to law abiding people to get (or banning them) won't do anything. Obama talked about the AWB - irrelevant in this case as the AR was not used.

After a spate of knife attacks on schools by mentally ill people in China last year the government there required registration of large knife purchases... Yet the attacks continue. Knowing who to punish is of little consolation when a child is dead.

There has to be SOMETHING we can do. Gun laws won't fix the underlying problem of mental illness. This must be dealt with at the individual person level.

[snot]

Plexi on doors and windows of schools could of helped this time.

[Tigerpaw]

The tv is saying his parents bought the guns. Evey child is special to their parent...but why the fuck do you buys guns for a kid that has a history of mental problems and is socially akward? Laws only work for people that follow them!

[Tigerpaw]

Plexi on doors and windows of schools could of helped this time.

While I agree. I believe where there is a will, there is a way. This little shit WANTED to be a mass murderer. A secure school would have only changed his plans.

[snot]

True. But it would of been a bigger challenge and the chance of success would of been much less. You cant predict everything just prepare. Another prevention could of been a secure gun safe. Its very sad and there are usually signs missed

[Scruit]

True. But it would of been a bigger challenge and the chance of success would of been much less.

Be warned - that is quoted by the anti-gun folks as the justification for things like the AWB and small magazines. "Yes, shootings will still happen but less people will die..."

[conn-e-rot]

Did he shoot out the glass in the doors to gain access?

[Scruit]

While I agree. I believe where there is a will, there is a way. This little shit WANTED to be a mass murderer. A secure school would have only changed his plans.

Agreed. We cannot PHYSICALLY stop these crimes (through gun control or secure buildings) We have to work at a MENTAL level (addressing the desire to kill, through better mental health services / evaluations)

Yes, it will be difficult.

[Scruit]

Did he shoot out the glass in the doors to gain access?

The police news conference just stated that he was not granted access to the building and that he entered the building by force. They refused to comment on is he broke the glass, but did say that the first responders also gained entry forcefully at multiple points in their attempts to evacuate as many people as possible.

[buildit]

When I listen to this on the news they like to cover every aspect accept the, "massacres keep happening in places where guns are not allowed", point of view. Think there is a motive behind this?

To those who actually believe banning firearms would keep them out of the hands of these mental cases I ask, "How well did the war on drugs go"? Pot has been illegal for all of my life, yet I know many of you smoke it and have no trouble obtaining it whenever you want. So tell me how this ban on guns will go. Tell me how it's worked in Mexico, England, or other countries with strict gun laws. It hasn't and the mass killing in Europe. Norway Mass Killer Gets the Maximum: 21 Years. How many kids did he kill in a place with strict gun laws?

The problem is people. We have no system to identify, detain and help mentally disturbed people. Instead we provide token prison sentences for when they start breaking laws and then reduce them because care givers proclaim they are mentally ill and don't know better. It's easier for parents, care givers and friends to simply ignore these people. Well, that is till it's too late and bodies are on the ground.

You want gun control? It starts at home. Lock and secure weapons and ammo in a "real" gun safe. If you have a carry weapon, keep it on you or secured at all times from children, family and those who might access your home either lawfully of illegally. There is a guy in Oregon who didn't and a dead Mom in Ct who didn't either.

Prayers and sympathies to the families facing the aftermath of another insane 20 something year old.

[Scruit]

So tell me how this ban on guns will go. Tell me how it's worked in Mexico, England, or other countries with strict gun laws. It hasn't and the mass killing in Europe. Norway Mass Killer Gets the Maximum: 21 Years. How many kids did he kill in a place with strict gun laws?

Research that better before you make that kind of argument.

Playing Devil's Advocate.... Norway has very lax gun laws by European standards, and semi-auto rifles are legal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Norway

In England, since the Hunderford Massacre by Michael Ryan using a previously legal Chinese AK47 (after which there was an outright AWB with no grandfathering), there have been no further semi-auto rifle mass murders reported.

Since Dunblane (which prompted the near-total lockdown of handgun, as the murders were carried out with handguns) in 1996, there have been only two mass shooting "sprees" of strangers (Derek Bird 2010 and David Bradley 2006), and one murder/suicide by gun (Michael Atherton 2012). http://www.murderuk.com/mass_murderers.html

In the US there is a mass shooting every 5 days, according to one newpaper... (More than one victim)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179995/A-mass-shooting-happens-FIVE-days-America-Interactive-map-shows-gun-violence-epidemic-sweeping-nation.html

Like I said, I'm fiercly pro-gun and just playing Devil's Advocate - just trying to let you know that your arguments need further research and fact-checking.

(Hint - check total murder and violent crime rates - the US has infinitely more gun crime, but the same amount of total murders and violent crime as the UK - that suggests to me that the murder weapon is not as relevant as the intent to do murder...)

[Scruit]

We will never stop all traffic fatalities. But we still try.

[Disclaimer]

We will never stop all traffic fatalities. But we still try.

It's always a cost-benefit argument. We could eliminate all traffic fatalities as we could eliminate all school shootings and murders and crime and welfare fraud and....

But are you willing to pay the monetary costs and the costs in personal freedom to allow it? The answer will likely always be a resounding 'No'.

[smashweights]

We will never stop all traffic fatalities. But we still try.

A point I've been thinking a lot about. CDC stats showed that in 2010 1,200+ children were killed in auto accidents where alcohol was a major factor. Yet where's the outcry against the 21st Amendment and reinstating prohibition? If each of these kids had been killed over the course of a year by drunk drivers, no one would bat an eye. How do we get personal responsibility in one regard and not the other? Or do we as a society think that alcohol has more of a positive role in our country than firearms?

[Scruit]

It's always a cost-benefit argument. We could eliminate all traffic fatalities as we could eliminate all school shootings and murders and crime and welfare fraud and....

But are you willing to pay the monetary costs and the costs in personal freedom to allow it? The answer will likely always be a resounding 'No'.

To allow what? A ban on guns? A ban on cars? Both are stupid ideas. There are things we can do - small pieces of the overall puzzle - that can be achieved without impacting the rights of good folks. Just because there is no silver bullet doesn't mean we should just throw our arms up.

[Disclaimer]

It's not about throwing our arms up. It's about COST-BENEFIT

If I proposed we spend more dollars on mental health issues, but your taxes would go up 1% and I think it would prevent 10% of mass killings. Would you take that deal? What if I said 8% tax raise for a 70% reduction of mass killings?

Now how about 13% for 90% reduction? Or 20% for 99% reduction?

It costs money and time to solve problems. And it's really hard to prove that something has been prevented. We spend all this money on DHS, and they claim to have thwarted how many "terror plots"? Was it worth it? You really can't assign a value to the benefit unless you make some assumptions on how successful the terror plot was to begin with.

The school had some pretty good safety and awareness measures to begin with -- the shooter gained forced entry. So, should we, as taxpayers, foot the bill to install steel doors with badge IDs, metal detectors for the teachers to run through everyday, and bulletproof glass in all our elementary schools? What about the cities without the taxbase to do that? Maybe there's a more economical compromise? Regardless -- doing "something" will cost additional resources/money, so where would you like to get that from?

[MidgetTodd]

My wife and I were just talking about how to (try to) keep guns away from crazies. One idea, mentioned above, is to have "mental defective" status (Item 11.F on the NICS form) be reported by mental health professionals to the govt so that NICS will already know this.

Other than "legal" sales where a metal case does not self-report his mental status, the biggest risk is unregulated private sales. Sorry, but the "gun show loophole" has to close.

Another suggestion, from my wife, is to set up NICS stations at gun shows. They can be ATM-sized machines that would work thusly:

- I go to a gun show and want to buy a gun privately

- Seller and I walk up to the NICS Station.

- I fill out information on the screen in a private manner.

- NICS result is displayed on the screen, and printed out.

- Seller keeps the printed form and the sale completes.

There is a debate about if the seller info or gun serial# should be stored.

If the gun is used in a crime and traced back to the seller, he provides the NICS station printout to prove that the NICS check was done and the result was a "proceed". Any sale that takes place without a NICS check would be illegal.

All other private sales would have to happen in the presence of a dealer who would run the NICS check - OR a NICS check station could be supplied for customer use at gun shops or similar businesses.

OR we open up the NICS phone # for regular people to use.

NICS checks are already done at gun shows. There is no loop hole for a dealer. Private sales can take place anywhere, a gun show is not needed for a private sale and there is no real way to regulate private sales. Guns in the wrong hands also are not often from a private sale, they are stolen

[Scruit]

NICS checks are already done at gun shows. There is no loop hole for a dealer. Private sales can take place anywhere, a gun show is not needed for a private sale and there is no real way to regulate private sales. Guns in the wrong hands also are not often from a private sale, they are stolen

I know that NICS checks are done at gun show - for dealers, not for private sales.

The fact that private sales are not regulated makes NICS useless.

[MidgetTodd]

I know that NICS checks are done at gun show - for dealers, not for private sales.

The fact that private sales are not regulated makes NICS useless.

No, no it doesn't. Private sale is a very very small percentage of gun trade and guns never make it to private sale with a nics check to first get to private hands. So there is still an accountability process. And like I said, private sale is a very very small part. Instituting nics for private sale would make an unnoticeable difference.

Besides that any private seller can still have a nics done by simply doing the transaction at a dealer. We have done it at delta several times, buyer and seller both come in and buyer fills out paper and we run it. Not that hard. You are over thinking this and asking for an unneeded useless change that already is available to you

[Tpoppa]

Guns have been around for a long time. This phonemena of young troubled males massacring innocents seems to be more prevelant during the last 15 years or so.

There are many societal factors that contribute: declining family values, lack of role models, multiple generations of parents that are afraid to properly discipline their children. As a result there is a growing number of young people that are suffering from mental illness that do not know how to channel depression, frustration, anger, etc.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Tpoppa

[Scruit]

Guns have been around for a long time. This phonemena of young troubled males massacring innocents seems to be more prevelant during the last 15 years or so.

I don't think there's more murders - I think there's more reporting of them. 50 years ago you probably wouldn't hear about stuff like this unless it happened locally. Nowadays if a kitten is born with two arses in china then the rest of the world hears it on twitter within 10 minutes.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Scruit

[Scruit]

Private sales had nothing to do with this shooting.

Not with THIS shooting. But what about all the others? What about the next one? Just like the AR - wasn't used, will still be vilified.

These are the discussions we need to have. They are good discussions if they ultimately lead to something positive.

My focus right now is the fact that the vast majority of these events center around mentally disturbed persons, and the apparent disconnect between the folks treating these nutjobs and the folks selling them weapons. (guns being the obvious weapons, but if guns are not available they will use knives, etc)

[Tpoppa]

I don't think there's more murders - I think there's more reporting of them. 50 years ago you probably wouldn't hear about stuff like this unless it happened locally. Nowadays if a kitten is born with two arses in china then the rest of the world hears it on twitter within 10 minutes.

I don't mean murders overall, I specifically mean young troubled males massacring innocents. You can find examples from longer ago, but this type of crime is definitely on the rise.

Yesterday, I watched a really intersting inverview of an FBI profiler who specializes in this thing (damn, I wish there was a video online). According to the profiler, this type of crime is almost always committed by a male age 16-24. The common thread was manic tendencies, bi-polar tendencies, and a history of being either sexually or physically abused when very young. He said there was also a connection the young males life not going according to plan like a divorce or failing out of school resulting in a feeling that revenge on society is justified. It's was a very specific kind of crazy, but a very difficult to catch ahead of time.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Tpoppa

[nautical1]

I've never seen this statistic before so forgive me if it's been posted, but I figured this is for all those who blame guns.