chevysoldier

Holy crap, well here goes.....

yes i do have my chl

and i carry everywhere i can

I have had my CHL for 5 years and almost always carry

Everywhere except school (or on the way to or from).

Thank you.

Gotcha. It piqued my curiosity, since I understand that recording audio of someone without their consent is inadmissable in either prosecution or defense of someone. Now perhaps I am wrong on that, and if someone has the details, please let me know. Either way, it just kinda stuck out to me. No big deal. Thanks for answering my question very directly.

See my reply to Tom at the end of this post.

I guess my unsolicited $.02 would be that regardless what is currently on the books about inducing panic may help once you get to the courtroom, but in the court of public opinion, where Johnny and Jane Smith take their families out they aren't up-to-speed on that, nor are they accustomed to someone OC'ing all over the place. You just said yourself, "that I know a person OC'ing is not always a welcomed sight". So you know that as soon as you step foot out of your front door, someone is not going to get it right. Someone is going to either challenge you (hence the need for your voice recorder) or at the very minimum, you are going to get disapproving stares from other customers in the establishment. The reality is regardless of the laws on the books, folks are uncomfortable with other folks they don't know touting lethal hardware.

Actually most of the looks I get are more of curiosity, not disdain. Maybe that has something to do with where I carry. We all know that many people have a bad image of guns. But by avoiding or hiding the problem will not change anything. If guns were more common place and the public was more educated on the subject things would be much smoother.

And quite frankly, if you don't carry a badge John Q. Public does have the right to question whether or not you should be carrying a weapon in plain sight and close proxmimity of him and his family, and John Q. Manager has the same to do so for his establishment.

I whole heartedly agree. Knowledge is the key to the universe. Again, I welcome questions as to why I have a gun on me. But I don't go out flashing it around begging someone to challenge me.

I do agree with your sentiment that in the case of a store that sells weapons, one would expect him to be better versed on the laws at hand, but that doesn't make it a requirement. Hell, folks buy computers from jackoffs at Best Buy all the time, and I know the lion's share of the blue polo hardware jockeys know jack shit about PCs other than what's on sale.

Agreed. I shouldn't have assumed they would have been experts on the subject. I admit this as one of my mistakes and will not let it happen again.

Still, there seems to be the overwhelming contingent of gun owners who take offense at anyone taking the time to question why they are carrying a weapon somewhere, yet cannot seem to understand how someone who doesn't feel the need to pack heat to go get groceries wonders to themselves "he has a gun, what makes him/her uniquely qualified to carry one near me?".

Odd. I find the exact opposite. Most every person I know or have met that carries is very open and welcoming to questions concerning their firearm.

Chev, I know (for as much as our non-pr0n interwebz site can provide me with) you are a decent guy. You're a fellow vet, and by and large, that plenty enough for me to be comfortable with you carrying around me. And I figure that for the most part, you don't OC as if its your entry into a biggest dick contest.

I know I have the biggest dick so I don't feel the need to compete.

My guess is at worst one of your thoughts as you OC is the same as the marking on a poisonous creature in the wild. "I am potentially dangerous only if you fuck with me. Otherwise, we're good".

Yeah, maybe subconsciously. Never really thought about that. Good point

And as someone myself looking to acquire my CCL this year, I am good with folks who ask those that openly tout their firearms why they do so, and to a degree, even questions your answers as to whether or not they are fact. Just because you know you have read the laws, that doesn't make you the expert to the public.

I don't pretend to be an expert in anything, ever. There is too much info to ever be an expert. That why I posted this thread in the first place. I like feedback, I want to learn.

In your own mind and hear you know this, and that's good from the standpoint that it is the framwork by which you carry yourself, and your weapon. Think about this. We question law enforcement all the time. You do both as a motorcyclist with reference to traffic and vehicle laws, and as an armed citizen about weapons laws. In some cases, for very good reason and some mebers of law enforcement have proven to be behind on the latest laws, or in some very few cases simply abuse their authority. In the same vein, common citizens have the right to question why you are carrying. A citizen's right to bear arms does not supercede his or her fellow citizen's right to openly question that armed citizen's need to do so, or whether or not they are uniquely qualified to possess and brandish (bad word choice, I have never brandished a firearm. )a weapon.

I am of the opintion that right now, the Constitution has it wrong. It should not be a right to bear arms simply because you were born into this nation, but a privilege to those Americans that have proven themselves worthy of that responsibility. That amendment is dated, and refelctive of the nation at that particular time, and not the vastly different nation we find ourselves in right now.

I do not agree with this. Is a right guaranteed to me. I don't think I should need a permit to say "I think Obama is a major idiot" I have a right to free speech.

And before anyone gets going on the "well that won't stop the criminals from carrying..." angle, well, no shit. That isn't what we are talking about here. Think about this. Were it based on the privilege of carrying, you would then immediately reflect upon those around you that you have (or should have) met all the necessary criteria to posession of that weapon, and potentially far less of the questioning and disapproving stares from your fellow countrymen.

I understand what you are saying but if I see someone who is openly carrying a gun I think to myself he has nothing to hide. He is probably okay. I will assess the person and situation but it will not throw up any red flags. Most bad guys want to surprise their target with a gun by hiding it.

If law enforcment asks you for proof, you show them your license, and be on your way.

Absolutely but they should have probable cause. Just having a gun is not PC.

But by having it as a right that is justifaibly debated now, and then subject to a variety of different laws from one place to another, one situation or another, we will continue to find ourselves mired in constant debate of which right it greater, who is right, and who is wrong, which only exacerbates the tension between gun activists, and anti-guners.

Most anti-gunners I have come into contact with are that way because they are misinformed or living in a fairy tale. They think "no gun" sign really keep bad guys away

I think that if you feel that where you are going is potentially unsafe, you have the right to be prepared to defend yourself. But there's also advice we all got from mo mand dad a long time ago. If its not someplace you feel you're safe, ya probably don't need to be going there in the first place. Just because the store is called Target doesn't mean it is filled with them.

It isn't because I don't feel safe somewhere I may go, but I know a safe place can become life threatening in a heartbeat. Church is supposed to be a safe haven. Heck our ROE in Iraq was to never fire on a mosque, no matter the circumstances. Tell the lady that was shot and killed leaving Sunday church that it is a 100% safe area.

Texas cannot OC at all. Although they do have a new "open carry in vehicle" law.

Texas CC is legal with permit. Ohio / Texas don't have reciprocity yet.

Note: Texas law specifically does not permit "printing" of CC weapon. (Visible through clothing.)

And... Texas is attempting to pass OC legislation.

That's what it was. I knew there was something weird like that. Thanks Tom.

False.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/leatherprotest.asp

Open carry is a cowboy. And even a cowboy would conceal when going into town.

On the other hand, my choice of OC would be a quick draw drop rig. With a .45 long colt, either Colt or Schofield. Guess I'm a cowboy too.

I've heard OC is typical in Texas, I wonder if that's true.

edit: for those that don't know, "cowboy" is the loose term used by police to describe both police and civilians that don't stick to the ritual take down and encounter training. (Or even the gun handling procedures. I'm guilty.) Ergo, the cowboy wings it. There are lots of those. Cowgirls included.

I think they OC because CC is illegal. And I believe the magazine can't be in the gun either. I might be wrong but don't have time to research it.

Chevy, quick question. Of all the conjecture in this thread on all sides, the one thing that jumped out at me was your digital voice recorder. Is that something you require for your job? Just curious how that worked its way into the conversation.

No I don't. With so many people saying "You are going to get busted for inducing panic" and "it's just going to escalate the situation" I just wanted to point out that I know a person OC'ing is not always a welcomed sight. So I try to do what I can to protect myself should things get out of hand. Just like the Cleveland Heights Police incident. The OC'er got everything on videotape to protect himself.

I don't carry it when I CC, and not all the time when I OC. Situation dictates.

i'm not politically active due to my chronic laziness, but i'm with chevy on this one. i don't OC because I don't have the time or the inclination to deal with the massholes, and being wrongfully accused of disorderly conduct/inducing panic. i may attend an OC event if proper steps were taken so as not to needlessly freak out uninformed law enforcement, but otherwise, braver men than I may defend themselves until proven innocent.

debating tactical advantage is probably silly, but bottom line, unless i was straight out to kill someone, i would never in a million years go straight for the chump with the gun strapped to his belt. then again, there are lots of dumbass criminals. so far, the only story i heard of an OC guy having someone go for his gun was a security guard trying to take some mall shopper's gun and getting knocked the fuck out in the process. that may have been a false story (i never finished reading it) but other than that, i'd imagine an OC is rarely bothered by anyone other than massholes and uninformed LEO.

i think people ought to feel free to do whatever they feel is necessary to make them feel safe. for me, that's to CC on occasion when I'm driving through UP's neighborHOOD, but I think OC should be common place.

and as far as chevy trying to start trouble... i don't agree with that at all. it's not like he went into the PETA head quarters and started spraying bitches with freshly squeezed endangered baby seal blood. He went into a gun store that was posted with signs that specifically states they DID NOT prohibit open carrying with a CHL AND teaches CHL classes, and still got hassled. Would i be surprised? not really, because working retail has the same effect to mental sharpness as phenylalanine to phenylketonurics but i'd wonder what they're feeding these retards. If i OC'd at say... a teddy bear store, and they weren't posted but they bitched to me and called the cops to warn them of columbine 2? maybe i wouldn't be so surprised and wouldn't wonder.

i think it's also inconvenient to have to feel like you have to carry a voice recorder and a AG handbook on gun carry laws so that if you get hassled and possibly arrested, you have reference and untainted evidence for later. is it worth it to me to go that far? not at all. but for someone else? why not? they're not making me carry the recorder. live and let live.

there are so many things to write about this but i just don't care enough. chevy: i applaud your efforts, and keep up the good work. hope you don't get in trouble while you do, though.

Thanks Jbot.

Generally, I'm pretty sure we liberals argue for civil rights for everyone. We do run the ACLU, don't we?

Shit, if I have to start oppressing biker gangs to keep my liberal credentials, I'm gonna need more guns.

I'd say the first step outta be a power washer

Most definitely. Was anything done to it before it was put away or you have some nasty gas in it?

Hoblick and Kreator, either of you have a CHL? Aerik, I know you have yours, how often do you carry? I am just curious.

i get your point..

but get mine

you dont see how far your going with it?

bringing a voice recorder with you?

dressing more respectable?

probably carry a copy of the laws around with you as well i assume?

it just doesnt make sense.. you have the right to carry a weapon concealed, you have a permit. why even get it if you just want to OC all the time to "prove a point"... yeah you can open carry, its legal, we get it..

its like you want the attention about OCing and want to lecture people on it..

to me if someone tells you , you cant in there place of business or whatever that it almost makes you uber happy to inform them that by law you can.

i dunno it just doesnt make sense to me and i think your blowing it way out of proportion

I do that when I carry to protect myself. Dressing with ripped jeans and a AC/DC tshirt and a gun won't bring more attention to me rather than dressing professional? You really have a problem with that? Yesterday was the first day I carried the AG handbook because I knew I would be out with a lot of people and law enforcement. Had LEOs take notice and not one batted an eye.

So when someone asks me to show my CHL when I OC I don't have a right to ask? And when they are misinformed I should let them continue to be misinformed? If they still don't want me to be there, I have no issues leaving. I think you feel when they say I can;t carry I get all giddy about it. No I ask what there reason is. If they say I just don't want you here, cool. If their reason is because it's illegal, how is politely informing them it is not illegal wrong?

Why get a CHL if I want to OC all the time? For one because it is illegal to OC in a car and unloading a magazine is a pain in the butt everytime you get in or out. Many people that OC have a CHL for that reason alone.

Correct, but if the situation was to escalate your actions could easily be seen as disorderly conduct because you open carried for no reason other than you wanted someone to challenge your right to do so.

Not hardly. Who says I carried a gun to get challenged by a bystander? Again I have never once flaunted that I was carrying. I OC because it is my right to do so as an American. It is your right to not OC for the exact same reason.

You know I like you Chebby so don't take this wrong but ......... Why man why? I wont open carry in public, it sends a message and the wrong one at that. And yes it does induce a panic in most people that don't own a gun, granted not in the eyes of the law but yes it most certainly does in the eyes of the public. I guarantee you people will be calling 911 when they see you walking around with the gun displayed on your hip as well as complaining to the manager in stores when they see you. This complaint will also push the store to post signs for no carry.

It is your right and it is legal, but why bother and why provoke a problem?

And on top of that if someone is there to rob the place or what not you'll be the first target because they know you're armed so there goes your element of surprise to assist in the incident.

I agree. The simple (and in my view unfortunate) fact is that people around here just aren't accustomed to seeing anyone other than LEOs walking around carrying openly. All it's going to do is cause you problems you don't need.

Also, 1000rrrider's right-- you give up a tactical advantage by being visibly armed. Someone who intends violence will likely target you first, possibly before you even know something's happening, depriving you of your opportunity to surprise him. It's far better to be thought harmless; you have better odds of getting a chance to act.

Overall, I would just stick to the concealed carry and call it a day.

100% agree..

seems like some people on here just want to push the open carry thing waaaaaaayy to much..

you have a conceal carry so use it.

the point of carrying is to be able to protect yourself and your family in case of life threatening situation.

why feel the need to flaunt your weapon we there is no need to

yeah its your right, but there isnt a need for it in any situation.. unless you arent licensed to carry conceal

I'm not pushing OC on anyone. If you don't want to, don't. That's your choice. By law I have done nothing to induce panic so I am really not that worried. There are enough court cases to back me. I carry a digital voice recorder as well. When I do OC in public I dress in khakis and a polo shirt tucked in. I am usually clean shaven also. I give a professional appearance. I don't know if this helps me, but I know it doesn't hurt.

Tactical advantage is very debatable. There is nothing but theories on OC vs CC as far as tactical advantages. Maybe I lose my surprise, maybe the bad guy only wants an easy target and leaves after seeing me. I don't know and I am really not wanting to get into that kind of discussion. No one will win because there are no hard facts to back it up.

As far as business posting no guns signs because I OC in them is bogus. All the places I frequent have not posted, and some of the business that used to don't anymore because I have talked with them. I approach them and tell them I will take my business else where. When they ask why I explain myself. One is the Hartford Fair. They did not allow guns at all on the premises and after appealing to the board they now allow CC. Take that as you want.

I'll add this to. Why should I have to hide something totally legal? How is sending the message that this is legal in all aspects of the law the wrong one to send? Todd, you know guns don't kill people. It is the person that kills someone. This is why these gun bans take place. Oh my gosh, there is a gun and it's going to jump out and shoot someone. For fuck's sake come on.

For too long we as a country have let our freedoms become less and less little by little. You ever try to talk to someone when they ask you why you ride a motorcycle? They say it's too dangerous, you're going to die. How many people will talk with them and explain the reasons why you like to ride? You could just take a cage, it's safer.

100% correct, I open carry on my property, why would you open carry anyway? Yes, it's your right, but there are clear laws against causing panic. Gander Mountain is nothing more than a sporting gooods chain store, that manager prob makes 40K, not enough to put up with people trying to start an crap with them about CCL. If you want to make a diffrence write the company a letter or something, walking in there and refusing to show your CCL is just making you look like you want to start trouble.

Openly carrying a firearm is not inducing panic.

Klein vs. Leis, 99 Ohio St.3d 537 (Sept. 24, 2003)

Openly carrying a firearm does not mean that the person is automatically guilty of Disorderly Conduct (R.C. 2917.11) or Inducing Panic (R.C. 2817.31). Each case must be judged on it's own set of facts.

I thought that was the meaning of Memorial Day?

Independence Day celebrates the signing/ratification of the Declaration of Independence.

Truth. Today we celebrate high treason. A day we stood up for what we believed in and our freedoms.

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

They can require you to wear purple socks if they want to but why would they? I do not understand your expectation of them making up their own rules. They can make up all kinds of rules however dumb we find them to be. Information on their store policies is readily available and if you are going to fight the cause you should know your enemy better, unless you expect to lose. If being approached with force throws you off of your game you should be studied more to give yourself a firmer standing in your resolve.

I admire your youthful idealistic exuberance with wanting to educate the masses and I agree the fight shouldn't need fighting. I don't want to interact with that many people out in public, especially people who don't share my same views and values. If I were to see you carrying you would get zero reaction from me but you can expect to get a reaction from people who most likely aren't going to have their minds changed, I really don't need them wasting my time. If they were actively trying to change the open carry laws that might be a different story but it's a constitutionally protected right in the state of Ohio so I'm not going to fight a fight that isn't there because open carry isn't going away nor is anyone trying to take it away at this time. Just because others don't agree or like the fact that you open carry doesn't mean they need learning to see your way of thinking, if that's the case why don't you go around and educate them in other views you have.

I carry owb and don't care if anyone can tell if I'm carrying. I will also open carry if it's convenient for me but I don't try to confront anyone nor will I allow them to confront me in a forceful manor without resistance in kind. Law enforcement is different and I am fairly confident I comply with the laws whether they know them or not so those potential confrontations don't worry me.

My point with them making up any rule they want was my reason for showing my CHL. To comply with their policy as that was how the guy presented it to me.

The only rule I need to know before going into the store is if they have a no gun sign posted on the front door. If they don't post and then I get asked to leave, I leave.

I don't go out and tell everyone I have a gun. If they see it, so be it. Actually many of the people that do confront me seem to change their views after we chat. I don't start any confrontation about guns, ever.

No, they aren't trying to change the OC laws at this time. But where will you be carrying if 95% of establishments are posted no guns? Sure they haven't taken your right away to carry a gun on the sidewalk, but you can't go to the grocery store anymore. What happens if the same negative views about guns are allowed to go on unchanged? which would be an easier fight? Now or later if it is allowed to get to the point where something major needs to be done?

You are fighting the fight though. Just by you OC'ing you are "normalizing" that behavior. It's no different than hearing cuss words on TV anymore, it's been normalized.

I would have never showed him my license or expected him to know the law. You should have expected to be confronted when exercising your right to fix the problem and not have been thrown for a loop. To fain indignation at a situation you create is a little whiney and disingenuous because I am sure this treatment could have been foreseen especially since you feel the need to fix a problem. Good luck with that, there is an overabundance of ignorant out there and plenty more being created all the time. While it might be a noble endeavor you will find it to be a never-ending uphill battle that can only put your family in jeopardy if you don't have a better plan while going into it.

You can't be charged with inducing panic while conducting yourself in a legal manor or you have a good chance to win some money from the government coffers. This is not to say you won't be harassed by the ignorant but if you are legal you don't need to worry. In some neighborhoods if you walk down the street wearing a bandana and dew rag with your pants hanging around your thighs you could be inducing panic but you can't be charged with it because you are behaving in a perfectly legal manor.

I agree I should have never had shown him my license. I also admit that figuring a place, especially the store manager of a place that dealt with firearms would be a little more aware of the laws was a stupid assumption on my part. But being a private establishment can they not require me to have a CHL even when open carrying on their premises? Sure that is dumb but so is posting no guns signs.

What threw me was how he approached me. I have had people question me before but never with that kind of force. I knew I was well within the law so I wasn't worried about getting in trouble. I know I didn't handle everything how I should but that why I posted. I welcome criticism. I knew you'd post up on this too, you always do in gun related stuff. Will this keep me from openly carrying my sidearm? No, not a chance. I learned a lot and will be better armed with my head next time.

In a month or two I'll go back again, or maybe a different store. I'll openly carry just like I usually do. I want to see if their policy changes. Just because this may be a never-ending uphill battle doesn't mean it isn't a battle worth fighting. I have talked to many people who say they want to open carry but are too scared. If you and I and everyone else would open carry the rest of the public would take notice. But that will never happen if everyone just says it's too much trouble, too risky, too much work.

Holy crap. What the hell?

For gander mnt being a sporting goods store and selling handguns they are way uptight! The one by me is the same way. I asked if a holster fit my gun, and when the sales guy did not know I asked if I could check my gun to see if it fit. He about flipped out and had the manager over there right away. Same story showed him my chl and he left. But they do seem uptight.

I just would think they would know laws that are relevant to them. They are a big enough company they should have a few lawyers that look into stuff like that.

The entire problem with OC is the "inducing panic" in a public place. Sort of like jay walking, it's hard to get around that one.

There are court cases that show an openly carried gun is not grounds for inducing panic or even probable cause. It's too late to find them though.

Dude, you were confronted by a retail store manager. Nothing more, nothing less. He doesnt know shit about the laws just because his store sells guns. Gander Mountain might as well sell panties.

I wouldnt spend any money there. That store is a joke.

I usually only go in to check ammo prices. They only stuff I have bought there are a IWB holster for my .32 and a like 1o years a go a backpack. Don't think I am going to spend any money there.

It would be better if you could just conceal and carry.

But avoiding the problem doesn't fix the problem. Too many people are scared of guns and think they are the devil. I like to exercise my right to openly carry a gun. I also look at it since I am doing nothing illegal why should I hide what I am doing. Because other people might be offended or not like it?

Cali is all crazy. I hate when people say crap like that. I have rights but I don't care if those same rights are extended to you or not.

Well the family and I went out to day to celebrate our independence. A parade and fireworks with an openly carried gun on my hip. After the parade we decided to go to Gander Mountain in Reynoldsburg. On the front door is a sign that says something to the effect of "All weapons and bows must be checked at the front desk except those persons carrying a weapon openly or concealed as allowed by law. So I am fine.

I am inside for about 10 minutes when a associate makes a bee line straight for me. He asked if I was law enforcement and I informed him I am not. He then asked if I had a CHL. I said yes and he wanted to see it. So I showed it to him. I asked why he needed to see it, if that was store policy or not. He said well you can't open carry without a CHL. I said you sure can. He asked if I didn't need a CHL to open carry why did I have one. Informed him of the motor vehicle law. He was not aware of that law or that OC of a firearm without a CHL was legal. He let me be.

After about 10 more minutes of looking around I stopped someone else and asked to speak to the store manager. I was flabbergasted when the same guy that stopped me the first time was the store manager. So I showed him in the AG handbook the few sentences about CC laws do not regulate OC in Ohio. It really amazed me that a place like this wouldn't know that OC'ing in Ohio does not require a permit. I think I will OC in there in a month or two to see if I am treated differently.

Looking back I don't think I should have shown him my CHL because I didn't need it. This was my first time being confronted by someone who acted this way towards be so it kind of threw me for a loop.

Finale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVDvOVM79SU

Liberals...

One city official said, "I don't care about the civil rights of gang members," according to the Superior Court complaint.

We went to the Reynoldsburg parade and fireworks. The Parade was alright and the fireworks were pretty good. It wasn't stupid crowded and we didn't sit in the traffic for and hour and a half trying to get out.

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Kinda like sleeping with your wife.

Ziiiing!

Wait until she gets on here and reads that. Just ask 1000rr.

I thought all the same things about left turn only. Then I went to Columbus Motor Speedway and watched some races.

Really really cool stuff...

It's better live, and at a small track. And maybe even better with local drivers...

That is probably true. I was able to see time trials at the brickyard once. It was okay, just don't think I could sit there for 4 hours or whatever. I like the formula one on the road course (I think that what it's called.)

Didn;t say it was easy, just booooooooooooring.

Left turn left turn left turn left turn and repeat...sorry, I just can't watch it.