i appreciate your opinion, and i dont really care about this particular bike. i dont really need a bike right now, but if the right deal comes along, you know how it goes. plus, i havent done much work other than typing a few keystrokes and learning more about stuff that i should probably know about anyways. if it comes down to sitting at a bank trying to figure this out with a billion people and not buying the bike, then ill walk. but if he is just ignorant and slightly shady, and can pay off the loan and get me the title, then why not? i think hes the latter because his asking price was a little ridiculous (high). a scammer would probably do what this guy is doing, but have a much lower asking price so that he would get more of a response. i really do appreciate all of your guys' help. edit: he gave me the name of the credit union he has the loan with, still wont tell me how much he owes. i talked to the bank and they basically agreed with me and filled in some details. if i plan on buying it i should go with him to the bank and complete the transaction right there and he can pay off the loan and get me the title. if i want to speed things up, we can call ahead and have them take the title from their secure facility and transfer it to the local branch we wish to complete things at, then if he pays off the loan completely, they can hand over the title. maybe i can get a good deal out of it, who knows.