Car vs. Bike perspective at PIRC

[redkow97]

I was up at the kart track Saturday, and there were cars on the big track.  I went over to talk to a guy with an RX-7 after watching him smoke a 616hp McLaren 12c.

 

I'm sure the McLaren is faster, but the guy driving it wasn't.

 

Anyway, I initially went over because the RX-7 sounded absolutely sick, and was spitting huge flames out the pipe under deceleration.  I wanted to see if it was rotary, or a V8.  (turns out it is a rotary with 1 huge single turbo replacing the stock twin turbo setup, but I digress...)

 

So I asked what kind of laps they turn in such expensive equipment.  His car had a considerable amount of motor work and cheater slicks. He said he could manage 1:08's in that car.

 

I consider that to be a pretty solid Intermediate time on a 600. 

 

 

Now with that said, a "pro mazda" car (whatever that is - I assume it's an RX7 race series) would turn :54's.  I think the track record is a high :53 by Pegram on a liter bike, and :57 is beyond impressive for mere mortals (Neyra has done a few).

Edited April 14, 2014 by redkow97

[redkow97]

**track record on a motorcycle.

[Hollywood33]

I think Pegram's record is more like a :56.

[Hollywood33]

And it was a high :56 too I think (saw an article on roadracingworld.com from 2007).  I believe that record was broken by Robert Jensen in 2011 with a :56.8 something.

 

Still freakin crazy though.  And it's interesting to hear about the cars.

[TRMN8TR]

Cars will always run faster times than bikes will. It's simple, there's 4 tires instead of 2 and they can carry the corners way faster. 1:08 in a modified RX7 sounds pretty weak at PIRC. I work with a guy who did a lot of trackdays in a bonestock (other than sticky tires) S2000. Those cars are not fast by any means. He says he ran 1:04's at PIRC, and I've been in the car with him when he ran 1:14's with it at Nelson. Top speeds into the kink were only about 110-115. That means he is going around the corners A LOT faster than a bike running 1:14's that hits 140+ into the kink.

[Moto-Brian]

Cars will always run faster times than bikes will. It's simple, there's 4 tires instead of 2 and they can carry the corners way faster. 1:08 in a modified RX7 sounds pretty weak at PIRC. I work with a guy who did a lot of trackdays in a bonestock (other than sticky tires) S2000. Those cars are not fast by any means. He says he ran 1:04's at PIRC, and I've been in the car with him when he ran 1:14's with it at Nelson. Top speeds into the kink were only about 110-115. That means he is going around the corners A LOT faster than a bike running 1:14's that hits 140+ into the kink.

 

 

Not true.  Depends on the car.  Indy car?  Yes.  Stock based cars even with slicks?  Not usually.  We look at the times of the cars and even when they run the non keyhole, they run similar 600 times... 

 

And the track record isn't a :53...

[Hollywood33]

I hear what Brian's saying.  But put an F1 car up against a MotoGP bike at Nelson Ledges and the F1 car smokes the bike, right?

 

It's just that our stock 600cc sport bikes are way closer in performance to a Moto GP bike than a stock RX7, S2000, 350Z is to a F1 car.

[bloodninja420]

+1 to Brian and Hollywood.

Most tracks you need to be getting into supercar territory before turning better times than the 600s.

In the tracks I ran most frequently in autos, VIR and NJMP, my lap times were 2-5 seconds behind the fast 600s. This is in everything from a well sorted GT mustang, 400 whp Sti, and Carrera.

M5s and Z06s are probably the least expensive autos that start to pull away from 600s on the track. Assuming apples to apples skill level between pilots.

[bloodninja420]

On the extreme edge of performance, on a course like Suzuka, I think F1 times are 20+ seconds per lap faster than Moto GP.

[redkow97]

Cars will always run faster times than bikes will. It's simple, there's 4 tires instead of 2 and they can carry the corners way faster. 1:08 in a modified RX7 sounds pretty weak at PIRC. I work with a guy who did a lot of trackdays in a bonestock (other than sticky tires) S2000. Those cars are not fast by any means. He says he ran 1:04's at PIRC, and I've been in the car with him when he ran 1:14's with it at Nelson. Top speeds into the kink were only about 110-115. That means he is going around the corners A LOT faster than a bike running 1:14's that hits 140+ into the kink.

 

I wouldn't say all cars will always run faster times, but yes, the fastest cars will always be faster than the fastest bikes. 

 

I just like that a $3,000 bike can keep up with a much more expensive car.  This guy had sunk a lot of money into his RX7 to get it to the point where it could turn 1:08's.  Maybe he's just not that good of a driver, and maybe he was taking it easy on his street car, but I used to turn 1:08's on my warm up lap before I was running tire warmers.

 

I am surprised that an S2000 does that well, but without knowing how good of a driver he is, it's hard to make any kind of real comparison.  1:04 is a fast lap for me, but better riders will do an entire race and not have a flying lap over a minute...

 

I talked to the RX7 guy because his car sounded awesome, and he appeared to be the fastest guy out there.  Maybe none of them were that fast.  The guy in the McLaren was a straight-line hero though!  spooky fast.  quietest car on the track, and I know he was hitting the highest trap speed on the back straight.

[redkow97]

M5s and Z06s are probably the least expensive autos that start to pull away from 600s on the track. Assuming apples to apples skill level between pilots.

 

I would believe that.  I have seen a Z06 do a 1:12 at Nelson without looking like it was struggling.

[RHill]

I just like that a $3,000 bike can keep up with a much more expensive car.

This.

Would love to whip even a slow car around a track, but the costs are way out of my range. Hell, bike racing is out of my range, jus do what's needed to make it work.

[redkow97]

This.

Would love to whip even a slow car around a track, but the costs are way out of my range. Hell, bike racing is out of my range, jus do what's needed to make it work.

 

We should look into an OhioRiders.net LeMons team.

 

$500 limit on the car itself.

 

that does not include safety and consumable items though.  But if we can get a member with welding ability to fabricate a roll cage at a reasonable price, and perhaps borrow a racing seat and 5-point harness from someone, the rest would just be new brake pads and other small expenses.  Used tires are fine with me.

 

Anything with a manual transmission would be fun.

 

Could probably drop a motorcycle engine into a Ford Festiva and have some fun with that.

 

**edit - $500 MG Midget convertible + engine from wrecked bike = ORDN LeMons car. http://mansfield.craigslist.org/cto/4388388355.html

Edited April 15, 2014 by redkow97

[i-Zapp]

i've pondered the bike vs car thing too. Some other things off the top of my head, for novice weekend racers...

 

* the effective turn radius is much wider on a bike; you can start out wider, come in tighter, and run it wider

* power to weight: car= 350 / 3500 = 0.1 and bike = 120 / 600 = 0.2, so bike has double the accelerative capacity

* even though bikes have a fraction of the tire contact patch, it all comes down to the friction coefficient, and the rubber isnt all that different between cars/bikes. they'll both generate about the same lateral acceleration. however getting the bike tire up to optimum temp is easier.

 

the downside is the ability to recover from a slide isn't as easy. 8>|

 

I'll let you know more after this weekend - i'll be testing on four wheels at the Beav.

[bark615]

Here is a video I took while at the track that day!   The RX comes into play at the :22 sec mark.

 

[redkow97]

i've pondered the bike vs car thing too. Some other things off the top of my head, for novice weekend racers...

 

* the effective turn radius is much wider on a bike; you can start out wider, come in tighter, and run it wider

* power to weight: car= 350 / 3500 = 0.1 and bike = 120 / 600 = 0.2, so bike has double the accelerative capacity

* even though bikes have a fraction of the tire contact patch, it all comes down to the friction coefficient, and the rubber isnt all that different between cars/bikes. they'll both generate about the same lateral acceleration. however getting the bike tire up to optimum temp is easier.

 

the downside is the ability to recover from a slide isn't as easy. 8>|

 

I'll let you know more after this weekend - i'll be testing on four wheels at the Beav.

 

I bolded part of your comment that I think is VERY significant in certain situations.  I had typed out a longer response before that addressed this, but I wanted to avoid making it into a "cars are better than bikes" thing.  Cars are just different than bikes.

 

Because the bike is so much narrower, we effectively have a wider track, and; at least in 'shallow' turns, can ride a straighter line.  Cars destroy bikes is in long constant-radius turns, like T10 at PIRC, or the carousel at Nelson Ledges.  That is a situation where bikes are on the edge of their grip, at a sustained speed, for a (relatively) long period of time.  The car is also on the edge of its grip for that same length of time, but it is traveling at a greater speed throughout that period, thus allowing it to gain ground on (or increase its lead) on a bike.  I think Bikes are probably quicker through Turns 1-5 at PIRC, but the cars turn up the hill and can mash the gas all the way through the second kink, then carry more speed through T10.

 

The layout really does have a huge effect on which machine is capable of lapping faster.  Top Gear has demonstrated this numerous times in the bike vs. car races.  The bikes win more often than not, because the venues suit its strengths (balls-out acceleration) more. 

[Jester_]

I had seen a video of a panigale vs a mclaren mp4-12c. The bike was way faster in the straights and the car was quicker on transitions where you would need to go lleft then right quickly or something like that. They also said under braking the car was better as well as turn in however they said once the bike was into the turn at full lean the car really wasent that much quicker.

 

I think the Duc was a second a lap quicker, like others have said im sure the layout of the track makes the biggest difference.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Jester_

[redkow97]

Using a Duc in the comparison doesn't help the illustration, but the McLaren probably costs $270,000, versus $40,000 for the top-of-the-line Pannigale.  A Japanese liter bike would be under $20k...

[turnone]

Using a Duc in the comparison doesn't help the illustration, but the McLaren probably costs $270,000, versus $40,000 for the top-of-the-line Pannigale. A Japanese liter bike would be under $20k...

Prices vary but that Duc was likely 26-27K as it was an S model tricolore. You could do the same on the 23K S model without the fancy paint scheme.

The new top of the line Panigale is the $65K version that is super light which would only make it even faster. Especially with the built in wheelie control.

You can see the video on YouTube on the Autocar channel.

Cars are faster around a track if you don't want a road legal car. You can build a light and fast car if you just care about lap times and not comfort. Hell, start with a shifter kart and go from there.

[TRMN8TR]

I hear what Brian's saying.  But put an F1 car up against a MotoGP bike at Nelson Ledges and the F1 car smokes the bike, right?

 

It's just that our stock 600cc sport bikes are way closer in performance to a Moto GP bike than a stock RX7, S2000, 350Z is to a F1 car.

 

This is what I was getting at.

 

And most of you guys comparing times at PIRC to the cars, remember this. You guys race, most of these guys are just at a trackday. If you want to compare apples to apples, maybe try looking at times the average trackday Intermediate sportbike rider is running. I doubt you'll see many 1000's doing 1:08's.

 

Then compare some lap times to those that actually race their cars. I didn't look at PIRC, but I know times for cars at Nelson are as low as :58, with tons of cars in the 1:01-1:05 range. But yes, they probably spent a lot more money to go that fast.

[Chuck Clay]

Hell.....My 500cc single cylinder supermoto does 1:08 at PIRC big track!!! Cars are for old guys that use to race bikes.

 

In English: something my sister would race.......LOL

[i-Zapp]

we had the opportunity to demo some Legends cars today at the Beav, courtesy of Cometic Gasket (theyre selling Legends now). They rented the big track and let a group hit the track for a few sessions each. pretty sweet deal.

 

Both my son and I managed to dip into the 1:13 range, but there's probably a whole lot left - cold tires, lack of experience with the car, somebody ELSE's car, etc. Very interesting and a whole lot of fun - especially being able to screw up here and there and it not causing a red flag. Driving a car - very forgiving, relatively speaking.

 

The screen shots below are a comparison between Zack's 1:15 lap time on his 250, compared to the Legend car. Since the lap times are not too far different, it's not surprising the speeds are close. Also, (not shown) the lateral g's are pretty darn close too.

 

video-

 

first half of track

 

second half of track

 

[rubbersidedown]

Motorcyclist Magazine did two articles on this back in the early 2000's. As I recall this is how it went:

Article #1 - Stock car vs. stock motorcycle

I believe it was a Corvette against a GSXR-1000 and Kevin Schwantz was the driver and rider. Bike won.

Article #2 - Indy car vs. AMA Superbike (Nicky Hayden)

I think they used Mid-O and the Indy car won. The difference is down force!

If you need more look up the articles.

[redkow97]

Motorcyclist Magazine did two articles on this back in the early 2000's. As I recall this is how it went:

Article #1 - Stock car vs. stock motorcycle

I believe it was a Corvette against a GSXR-1000 and Kevin Schwantz was the driver and rider. Bike won.

Article #2 - Indy car vs. AMA Superbike (Nicky Hayden)

I think they used Mid-O and the Indy car won. The difference is down force!

If you need more look up the articles.

 

The difference is down-force, and about $4,000,000.   I could own/build/buy an AMA superbike for less than my house costs.  I don't know anyone who could build an Indy car with their own personal finances.