Tank slapper, what to do?

[NinjaDoc]

I was reading more and more about it and watching all the thousands of video on YouTube and am sure this is what happened to me after the first slide. I never had experienced it before and couldn't believe how violent it was that I just couldn't control it. As I remember it my front gave away at an aggressive lean, but then I some how regained myself escaping a corner wash out only to follow up with this virulent mess. But I still thought it was impossible to happen  and all of this just in my mind, until I double checked with @durk whtr he could see it. And as he described it "you were getting thrown around like a ragged doll on that bike" 

i remember @Al Z. Heimer telling me one time he had one and presence of mind to escape it by lifting front wheel again of ground. That thought flashed through my mind but it was all so fast. 

Question is, does having a steering dampener etc act as an insurance against these in future? 

What else could be done during these episodes?  

Edited August 8, 2017 by NinjaDoc

[jacobhawkins]

I think @TimTheAzn posted a video a while ago of a guy power wheelie-ing out of one.  Don't know if that's the best way but it's a way.  The steering damper on my CBR was adjustable and I was tightening it at Mid Ohio last year as I was getting head shake coming out of the keyhole over the little rise there.  It helped calm it down.

[JustinNck1]

I had a tank slap issue on 550 (Sharpsburg Hill). Had the FJR full tilt and caught the front wheel on a pavement patch. Washed out and then caught and bucked like a bull and started slapping. I just pinned it and loaded the suspension to the rear. Also had to chase it all the way across the road. Not a fun time...

[durk]

1 minute ago, Isaac's Papa said:

Throttle. 

I think I remember reading this in Twist of Wrist or somewhere as the correct response. I saw the whole thing transpire and doubt I would have throttled. He started to slide and I believe the correct response again is to roll on as well, but doubt I would have done it. Doc did exactly what I think I would have done. I believe he rolled off throttle and stood the bike up.  The bike then went into the tank slapper after it came out of the slide and he ran out of real estate. If he would have throttled, definitely would have had to lean the bike back over through the left hander. @NinjaDoc I did not realize how much gravel was in that corner until I looked at the pic you posted. That thing was littered with gravel everywhere. I spotted the gravel in the middle as we came around the bend and saw you hit it, but I didn't see that it was throughout the corner. 

33 minutes ago, jacobhawkins said:

I think @TimTheAzn posted a video a while ago of a guy power wheelie-ing out of one.  Don't know if that's the best way but it's a way.  The steering damper on my CBR was adjustable and I was tightening it at Mid Ohio last year as I was getting head shake coming out of the keyhole over the little rise there.  It helped calm it down.

I experienced some head shake a few times at Mid Ohio coming out of the last turn down the front straight. I just kept on the throttle and to be honest I was kind of smiling about it. Might be some stupidity involved in that smile, but I figured it was a result of the front end getting light coming out of the corner. I just have the dampener that comes on the 06 1000rr, no adjustments. 

[2talltim]

Buy a C14, first bike I've owned that I've never had one. Right now I have a head shake above 100 due to shit front tire but never goes any further. Now my old TL1000 were known as the widowmaker for tank snappers. Suzuki put a damper on as a recall to reduce them but it helped very little. You just had to roll back into it then she would smooth back out.

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by 2talltim

[NinjaDoc]

Wish my go pro was running at that time, minor head shakes and sort of jittery feeling I have experienced in past, as durk said almost stupid fun. This was just so violent I couldn't even think straight, almost like I was about to be ejected right off the bike. I am afraid if this happens again I still might not be able to do anything about it  

[durk]

5 minutes ago, NinjaDoc said:

I am afraid if this happens again I still might not be able to do anything about it  

Doc as I think about it the way the bars were whipping you around I don't know if you could have throttled. 

[blue-yamaR6s]

Doing a recent track day, the instructor told us to throttle on through it but everything you instinctively want to do will be the opposite of that.

[NinjaDoc]

11 minutes ago, durk said:

Doc as I think about it the way the bars were whipping you around I don't know if you could have throttled. 

Exactly, in my mind I always thought it can be dealt with when I was reading about it. And when it really did, maaaan that was freaking bull crap. I don't want this fear to affect my riding in future, that's why strongly considering dampening as an insurance or pseudo insurance. 

[Tpoppa]

Did you crash?

The only time I almost crashed due to a high side was when I rode my 600rr through a 20ft oil slick on 556 near a fracking site.  It was violent.  I was hanging off the bike and got thrown on top.  The bars wound up at my waist and I was looking at the front wheel.  It happened really fast...somehow I stayed on the road and rode out of it.

What saved me was good body position and properly set up suspension.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Tpoppa

[Gixxus Christ!]

Goose it. When it looks like shit is gonna go wrong, just apply full throttle. If it doesn't fix the situation it will alleviate the anticipation.

[NinjaDoc]

2 hours ago, 2talltim said:

Buy a C14, first bike I've owned that I've never had one. Right now I have a head shake above 100 due to shit front tire but never goes any further. Now my old TL1000 were known as the widowmaker for tank snappers. Suzuki put a damper on as a recall to reduce them but it helped very little. You just had to roll back into it then she would smooth back out.

 

Even the mammoth gold wings get tank slapper, may not be virulent as light weight bikes but still they get it, it's just physics of wheel riding and weight has only minimal impact on the same. 

1 hour ago, Isaac's Papa said:

There's a whole list of shit he should have done to avoid it in the first place. That's where the lesson is. 

Totally agree, in fact I am happy it was restricted to this considering the risks I been taking literally every other ride. But I don't want to quit now since I might never get back on the bike if I do now, I don't want to change my riding style since apprehensive scared riding is more dangerous than your instinctual basic riding habit. And I don't think I will learn to sleep well before a ride but definitely won't be getting out when dead floor tired and sleepy in future. At least that much I should resign myself to do. It's quite a catch 22, love riding to the point can't sleep well from excitement, can't ride well since you didn't sleep well. 

55 minutes ago, Tpoppa said:

What saved me was good body position and properly set up suspension.

Suspension I can understand minimize risk of tank slappers, but how does body position ? You can get hit with tank slappers even in straight line. 

T, On a side note, I changed the rear rebound as you suggested and it was behaving much better on rough roads. 

[Tpoppa]

6 hours ago, NinjaDoc said:

 

Suspension I can understand minimize risk of tank slappers, but how does body position ? You can get hit with tank slappers even in straight line. 

I was hanging way off the right side of the bike, fully committed to the turn, and got thrown on top.  If I was hanging off just a little or sitting straight up, I would have gotten tossed off the left side.  I hang off in most corners.

I'll add, I've ridden 300-400k of pretty aggressive riding on the street, on at least 25 different motorcycles, and this oil slick was the only time I've almost tank slapped.

Steering inputs and throttle control also play a factor.

[NinjaDoc]

1 minute ago, Tpoppa said:

I was hanging way off the right side of the bike, fully committed to the turn, and got thrown on top.  If I was hanging off just a little or sitting straight up, I would have gotten tossed off the left side.  I hang off in most corners.

I'll add, I've ridden 300-400k of pretty aggressive riding on the street, on at least 25 different motorcycles, and this oil slick was the only time I've almost tank slapped.

Steering inputs and throttle control also play a factor.

Makes sense. The lucky part or unlucky part is I was just cruising along and not even aggressive. I was probably sitting upright just countersteering just minimal lean and going slowish. 

[JustinNck1]

8 hours ago, NinjaDoc said:

Totally agree, in fact I am happy it was restricted to this considering the risks I been taking literally every other ride. But I don't want to quit now since I might never get back on the bike if I do now, I don't want to change my riding style since apprehensive scared riding is more dangerous than your instinctual basic riding habit. And I don't think I will learn to sleep well before a ride but definitely won't be getting out when dead floor tired and sleepy in future. At least that much I should resign myself to do. It's quite a catch 22, love riding to the point can't sleep well from excitement, can't ride well since you didn't sleep well. 

I honestly don't know how you ride with little to no sleep. Fatigue on a motorcycle increases risk factors obviously. Accidents and mistakes happen. It's part of motorcycling. It is good to learn from our mistakes, but don't over analyze it.

[what]

10 hours ago, NinjaDoc said:

Suspension I can understand minimize risk of tank slappers, but how does body position ? You can get hit with tank slappers even in straight line. 

You don't want any weight on your bars. With proper body position your bars are not weighted. If you weight you have weight from your torso on your bars when you get into a tank slapper, the force is pushed through your whole body and it will shake the living hell out of you and may even toss you off the bike, if you have no weight on the bars your body will not be pushed around by their violent movement and you have a better chance of being able to throttle out/save it. 

 

A steering damper could possibly have helped, but who knows. They don't 100% stop tank slappers, just reduce the likelihood and severity. 

 

Sometimes things like this happen and in all respects there is nothing that could have been done to save it. Looking back and analyzing it is a good exercise but there may not be an answer beyond "look out for gravel" and "be more vigilant when a road's surface is unknown to you."

 

Granted, I am just as guilty of riding faster than is probably wise on certain roads in certain conditions, so I'm not speaking from a pedestal by any means. As far as getting back on the bike, do it. You may be spooked for a little while because of the down but you'll get past it. When I went down a few years back on my Striple, I slowed down a lot. What helped me the most was the track, it let me get confidence back and helped me figure out what I was doing wrong and work on correcting things in a controlled environment. 

[Tpoppa]

7 minutes ago, what said:

You don't want any weight on your bars. With proper body position your bars are not weighted. If you weight you have weight from your torso on your bars when you get into a tank slapper, the force is pushed through your whole body and it will shake the living hell out of you and may even toss you off the bike, if you have no weight on the bars your body will not be pushed around by their violent movement and you have a better chance of being able to throttle out/save it. 

This

[Xsr900Rider]

11 hours ago, NinjaDoc said:

And I don't think I will learn to sleep well before a ride but definitely won't be getting out when dead floor tired and sleepy in future. At least that much I should resign myself to do. It's quite a catch 22, love riding to the point can't sleep well from excitement, can't ride well since you didn't sleep well. 

I used to be that same way but I don't know if it is getting older or what but anymore the things that used to keep me up at night don't. All I can think about the day before the ride is getting to sleep so it gets here faster. I still usually beat my alarm up in anticipation but I sleep like a baby through the night. As far as fatigued riding I try not to do that anymore. When I road dirt bikes it never failed I would ride to much trying to get as much out of my time at Wayne that I could. Always towards the end of the day I'd almost always wreck. I chalk most of those up to exhaustion and hardly having the energy to manipulate the bike, but a wreck is a wreck doesn't matter what excuse I attached to it. Luckily usually minor but did toss a brand new Atv off a 25ft drop at the end of one day. I was at least coherent enough to realize I lost it and dove off before the drop and was only banged up from a 30 mph roll on the trail. The Atv filpped a few times. I slid down and it started right up and road it back with bent racks and handlebars. 

[DerekClouser]

Just pick up a steering dampener and you'll likely not have to worry about this.  When it happens, you can try to throttle it out, but it's not easy to do.  Just pucker up, change your underwear and keep riding!

[NinjaDoc]

3 hours ago, what said:

You don't want any weight on your bars. With proper body position your bars are not weighted. If you weight you have weight from your torso on your bars when you get into a tank slapper, the force is pushed through your whole body and it will shake the living hell out of you and may even toss you off the bike, if you have no weight on the bars your body will not be pushed around by their violent movement and you have a better chance of being able to throttle out/save it. 

Good point, In a way thats why i started to love upright bikes, it is because of inherent body position of not putting too much weight on hands/handle bar for regular street riding. And for the minimal top speed we try to achieve on straights in street riding, we dont really need an aggressive tuck position. I almost feel like i ride much better the upright ones than full on RR bikes. 

Anyways i was just trying to put the discussion up here just as a reminder or help others. If one persons at least gets help from it, its worth it. Durk had graciously said he would keep this hush hush, but i told him i posted up. Even if it means some shame and ego hurt, there is always a reminder or learning exp. Plus there are only two kinds of riders, those who crashed and those who will crash. Personally for me, i was strongly expecting this one day with my bad habit of zoning out during the boring commute part to and from an actual ride. I was just happy it happened when we were going slower and steady and there by reduced eternal damage.

 

[whaler]

Doc did you ever have your suspension properly setup? Tank slappers on modern bikes usually point toward improper front setup or bad bike geometry because of incorrect or excessive sag (front or back). Steering  input is also a major factor as stated above.

[hiro]

I know nothing about this, but what I heard is that the more the wheel movement is resisted, the worse the outcome is. Is it possible for a steering damper to be counter-productive if it's too stiff? (Not sure if that was mentioned.)

[NinjaDoc]

33 minutes ago, whaler said:

Doc did you ever have your suspension properly setup? Tank slappers on modern bikes usually point toward improper front setup or bad bike geometry because of incorrect or excessive sag (front or back). Steering  input is also a major factor as stated above.

not perfect, but it was okay and not terribly unbalanced. 

[what]

59 minutes ago, whaler said:

Doc did you ever have your suspension properly setup? Tank slappers on modern bikes usually point toward improper front setup or bad bike geometry because of incorrect or excessive sag (front or back). Steering  input is also a major factor as stated above.

That may be true for tank slappers in corner exit/entry but it seems that this one was more about the bike getting upset due to losing traction through a corner and then trying to re-right itself after regaining traction. Tank slappers happen when the geometry of the bike gets out of whack while attempting to go in a straight line - it's the bike trying to fix the problem the only way it knows how. 

 

for example: 

Edited August 8, 2017 by what

[durk]

I can see @what you have been doing your homework. I'm guessing you want to know what to do if things go south on that jump on 676 you keep launching.