Tonik Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 We all know this is bad (for the most part), but a question on another forum has me wondering about something. Dude posted up in the Goldwing forum asking if there was a way to 'turn off' the linked brakes easily. He wants them off because he believes they are the cause of his bike standing up while braking....while leaned over. So that made me curious, does the bike indeed stand up when you brake in a corner. For my Goldwing with linked brakes the answer is yes. I tested it on a few off ramps today OTW to work and it stands up for sure. A few inches I would say. So, those of you that do not have linked brakes, does your bike stand up a bit when you brake in the corner? I would think it does and has nothing to do with linked brakes but is standing up because you are bleeding off speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F4iguy Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 By standing up, you mean decreased lean angle with no other changes to inputs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 My race bike has linked brakes, it's not the cause. How hard are you using them while leaned over and where did you start your application. Breaking while leaned over isn't bad at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted August 5, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 6 minutes ago, F4iguy said: By standing up, you mean decreased lean angle with no other changes to inputs? Correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted August 5, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, blue03636 said: My race bike has linked brakes, it's not the cause. How hard are you using them while leaned over and where did you start your application. Breaking while leaned over isn't bad at all. Mid corner, leaned pretty far. Not heavy braking but enough to slow down quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheAzn Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) If anything if the brakes are applied correctly mid-corner, it should turn the bike. Speed = Radius, the slower you go the tighter the radius. Using the brakes past turn in isn't bad. It's how the bike is designed to be ridden. Edited August 5, 2019 by TimTheAzn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 It's a technique problem not a leaned over braking problem. That's going to happen every time hitting the brakes like that. If you are leaned over already you have to ease in to them slowly. You're better off carrying them in to the corner not hitting them in the middle. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheAzn Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 You must load the tire, before you work the tire. 😁 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester_ Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 If you apply the brakes too abruptly it can cause the bike to not want to turn in as well, I experienced this at VIR last year going into T3. You use the brakes to adjust the geometry of the bike to help turn in but apparently I was jumping on them a bit too aggressively. Smoothed out the inputs and the bike behaved normally again. I have linked brakes on my R1 and have no issues with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Tonik said: Dude posted up in the Goldwing forum asking if there was a way to 'turn off' the linked brakes easily. He wants them off because he believes they are the cause of his bike standing up while braking....while leaned over. So that made me curious, does the bike indeed stand up when you brake in a corner. Nothing to do with linked brakes. My CBR600RR and VFR1200 both had linked (combined) brakes and neither had that tendency. No idea about Goldwings, but some bikes are indeed prone to standing up in a corner under breaking. That was an early complaint on Buell XBs with the ZTL brakes for example. It was a repeated theme in early track reviews. I have felt in on other bikes to one degree or another. If your bike does it and you know to expect it, it's something you get used to and a non-issue, IMO. However, it more likely there's a technique issue at play. Like when the brakes are applied, or body position, or not realizing that he is changing the steering input during braking with his weight shifting forward. Edited August 5, 2019 by Tpoppa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2talltim Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 20 minutes ago, TimTheAzn said: If anything if the brakes are applied correctly mid-corner, it should turn the bike. Speed = Radius, the slower you go the tighter the radius. Using the brakes past turn in isn't bad. It's how the bike is designed to be ridden. The Azn kid is right. Just don't ask him to do math. I trail brake all the time right up to the apex. Not saying abrupt braking in addition to that wont stand the bike up a little, but usually human instinct and or combined with target fixation will stand it up more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2talltim Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 19 minutes ago, TimTheAzn said: You must load the tire, before you work the tire. 😁 +1 on this too. If said person is just rolling through a corner and hits the brakes it will upset it more vs already being loaded via trail braking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2talltim Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 I never wanted linked brakes on the C14 because the 2010-2014 models sucked and was way too heavy to the rears. But Ive heard the 15 and ups have been ironed out. The 08-09 arent linked(mine is a 08) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaDoc Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 Correct me if I am wrong, but about 10 yrs ago the “pace” was considered the Bible for street riding. Seeing no unnecessary red light of brakes in group rides used to be considered good as in people are setting corner speed right and going smooth etc These days “trail braking+ following pace” is the best combo. Advise is to start using trail braking even in routine street rides and not only in track. Which makes a lot of sense. Smooth and gradient input on brakes and then modulating it to your advantage. I think problem with gold wing is the the initial bite felt very heavy ? as in almost more than 50% of the braking seems to come in as a big chunk with slightest input and then it slow and gradient. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheAzn Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 I don't know if I'm getting old or what, but if you need to trail brake on the streets, you're riding too fast on the streets. If you're doing it just to keep the muscle memory/ keep your tool bag sharp for the unexpected, then I guess it's ok. I think everyone should become proficient with it. @whaler saw it save my ass one time on the street when I went in hot and he saw my brake lights come on before disappearing up and over a hill/corner. *not to turn this into a track discussion* Only reason I didn't cross the double yellow is because I felt comfortable enough to apply the brakes when and where I did. Only reason I was comfortable doing so was because of the few track days I had under my belt at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
what Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) Any forceful input applied to the wheels while leaned will cause the bike to want to stand up - either accelerating or braking - for the most part. You can feather your rear brake while rolling off the throttle to tighten your turn a bit, (or feather your rear brake coming out of corners as a poor man's wheelie control while maintaining drive) but in general just think input to wheels = bike will want to stop turning and go straight. It's a given though that if your brakes are linked, you probably can't use this method of line adjustment. ** **Apparently an incorrect statement according to @Jester_'s post. I have no linked brakes, ABS, or anything fancy schmancy to mess with so I'll take his word for it. Edited August 5, 2019 by what Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheAzn Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, what said: in general just think input to wheels = bike will want to stop turning and go straight. It's a given though that if your brakes are linked, you probably can't use this method of line adjustment. Can you expand on what you mean? I don't understand what you are saying. I input 2% braking leaned over in a corner, that braking input force eventually goes to the wheels slow me down, decreases my radius and I turn better. Edited August 5, 2019 by TimTheAzn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 When the majority of riders say they "trail brake" they are really panic braking from lack of confidence in their corner entry speed 🙄 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
what Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 1 minute ago, TimTheAzn said: Can you expand on what you mean? I don't understand what you are saying. If your get on the throttle, it makes the bike stand up. If you get on the brakes (forcefully), it makes the bike stand up. I avoid using my front brake for line adjustments mid corner because the danger of tucking the front is highest near the apex and generally that's when I'm having to adjust/tighten my line... not the best moment to be adding additional stress to the front tire - so I stick with rear brake or less maintenance throttle. Obviously if I'm wanting to swing wider on corner exit I get on the throttle earlier to adjust my line. I had assumed that linked brakes would add more stress to the front and increased the chances of tucking, but those with linked brakes in this thread say they have had no issue so I'll believe them over my assumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 7 minutes ago, what said: I avoid using my front brake for line adjustments mid corner because the danger of tucking the front is highest near the apex and generally that's when I'm having to adjust/tighten my line... not the best moment to be adding additional stress to the front tire - so I stick with rear brake or less maintenance throttle. Obviously if I'm wanting to swing wider on corner exit I get on the throttle earlier to adjust my line. I had assumed that linked brakes would add more stress to the front and increased the chances of tucking, but those with linked brakes in this thread say they have had no issue so I'll believe them over my assumption. If you need to tighten a line and braking like you should, added a couple of % to tighten it up isn't going to be an issue, you can also use your head to tighten the line, or both. Rolling off the gas mid corner is more dangerous than the brakes. It will overload the tire quicker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheAzn Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 You should be on the front brake to apex ("ideally")... which means you should modulate your front brake until you get the direction you are seeking. I'm talking 1-5% braking. Hell just touching the pad to the rotor will help set up your bike's geometry to turn. I actually suggest using the front brake to make line adjustments after tip in. Like Craig said you can also use your head which adjusts your bp (mostly upper body) to help tighten the radius. A couple times I felt like I was about to smack my head into the apex board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester_ Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 44 minutes ago, what said: It's a given though that if your brakes are linked, you probably can't use this method of line adjustment. ** **Apparently an incorrect statement according to @Jester_'s post. I have no linked brakes, ABS, or anything fancy schmancy to mess with so I'll take his word for it. In regards to using the rear brake to turn a bike with linked brakes equipped I'm actually not sure how that would work. I have never actually used the rear brake in a corner aside from what the linked brakes provide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pauly Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 I imagine the intricacies of the linked system play the larger role. Which lever does what to which caliper and how much, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherBear2bliss Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 This is a great thread! Learning a lot guys, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherBear2bliss Posted August 5, 2019 Report Share Posted August 5, 2019 1 hour ago, NinjaDoc said: Correct me if I am wrong, but about 10 yrs ago the “pace” was considered the Bible for street riding. Seeing no unnecessary red light of brakes in group rides used to be considered good as in people are setting corner speed right and going smooth etc These days “trail braking+ following pace” is the best combo. Advise is to start using trail braking even in routine street rides and not only in track. Which makes a lot of sense. Smooth and gradient input on brakes and then modulating it to your advantage. I think problem with gold wing is the the initial bite felt very heavy ? as in almost more than 50% of the braking seems to come in as a big chunk with slightest input and then it slow and gradient. Thanks for posting this video, I really like Cannon Chasers content.👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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