Pre-Loading and Shifting Questions

[Decimation]

Can you shift from 1st to 2nd without the clutch? I normally shift to 2nd with the clutch and then pre-load the rest of the gears. I'm nervous that you can't shift past neutral without the clutch, so I don't screw with it.

Also, on the track with a stock 08 R6, what should my RPM to Shifting ratios be around? I'm not really schooled up on gearing. I normally just shift at 6k RPM when I'm just out on the road. It's obviously different when you're trying to get going quicker.

[MidgetTodd]

You can shift to any gear without the clutch if you let of the gas a lil. I prefer the clutch though, don't pull it all the way just feather a lil. The shift will be fast and you'll stay on the power.

[Decimation]

I don't lose much, if any power with pre-loading. I just sort of "snap" my wrist back and shift.

[Zach]

If you do it correctly, there's no problem clutchless shifting into second.

If you screw up though, bent shift forks aren't unheard of.

[Decimation]

Yeah, I think I'll stick with the clutch from 1st to 2nd. I'm not trying to experiment on this bike.

[Likwid]

What's a clutch?

I'm always smoking so I need my left hand.

[chevysoldier]

I don't feel the need to shift since I can do 120mph in 1st.

[serpentracer]

1st to 2nd can be a rough one. I often use the clutch for this one regardless if I'm on the street or the track. the rest I do with the clutch also for the most part on the street. but never touch it for upshifts on the track.

the other part of your question is one a lot of newer riders always seem to ask. there really isn't a good answer because it really depends what you are doing.

if you are racing down the track, take it to redline.

there's no need to take it to lets say 10k if you are intending to just get up to a 40mph speed limit. but if you want to get up to 40 really quickly, fine, do it. but there's no reason you have to take it that high to just be riding it. if that makes sense..

I see guys riding around town all the time with their bike revved way up doing the speed limit. there's no reason to. it wastes gas and puts more wear on your engine.

but don't ride around on a 600 at 35mph in 6th so it's struggling to do the speed limit. that can actually be hard on the engine bearings. the term is lugging the engine.

me personally, I typically go by what the engine feels like. I can tell if I roll on the gas and it's struggling. I'll need to downshift of course. but I don't stare at the tach. that doesn't really tell you anything.

typically with the stock gearing at lets say 35 all I need is 4th to keep the revs down and it still has enough power to get me up slight inclines with ease. there's no reason to beat on it for cruising around.

Edited July 12, 2010 by serpentracer

[wht_scorpion]

what you are talking about is speed shifting I you go fast it will be easy to speed shift

[SAMBUSA]

what you are talking about is speed shifting I you go fast it will be easy to speed shift

But it causes pre-mature wear. I do it thru all gears up and down(except down to first) but it does indeed cause pre-mature wear and tear.

[TSB67]

I was nervous about the 1-2 shift also, but it goes through it just fine at the dragstrip. I don't use 1st at the track. Clutchless shifting is really only good for high-RPM WOT, if you're just putzing around use the clutch. On my CBR and probably most 600s, the revlimiter is a good shiftpoint for 1-2 and 2-3 with the RPM drop. After that there may be something to be gained by shifting a little earlier, depends on your power curve.

[jporter12]

I wasn't so sure about speed shifting from first to second, and tonight on the 500 (it's alive again) I was upshifting without the clutch almosst every time (the hydraulic clutch on that thing is a monster to pull compared to the well lubed cable on the 250) and accidetally did the 1-2 shift without the clutch, which I never have done. Honestly, I've missed the 1-2 shift more USING the clutch than without now!

[Uncle Punk]

Wow, I can't believe a shifting thread is like an oil or tire thread, opinions are all over the place.

I clutchless shift as much as possible at every RPM, between every gear, up and down as a way to save wear and tear on my bike and it is far from speed shifting. I have never had a transmission issue on a bike using this method in fact I have had issues with a bike before I started using this method.

[ReconRat]

Not a fan of shifting without the clutch on a regular basis. You should know how to shift without the clutch, and be good at it. But it will eventually damage transmission parts. Older era motorcycles will suffer damage even faster, since they have a less sturdy transmission design.

Most motorcycles have a constant syncro mesh style design in all gears. That type of transmission has a certain RPM (velocity of the meshing gears) that will shift without the clutch. If you're right at that RPM, it's smooth. It will also shift without clutch at all other RPMs as well. It just won't quite be as happy about it.

You can feel it usually, if you put light pressure on the shift lever, as the tach is climbing or dropping, you'll feel it suddenly change gears at that meshing RPM.

I keep thinking about having to drive a truck with no syncro in first gear (or more), and having to double clutch it to synch the gears in order to up or down shift.

[jporter12]

Wow, I can't believe a shifting thread is like an oil or tire thread, opinions are all over the place.

I clutchless shift as much as possible at every RPM, between every gear, up and down as a way to save wear and tear on my bike and it is far from speed shifting. I have never had a transmission issue on a bike using this method in fact I have had issues with a bike before I started using this method.

I've noticed some bikes do better with it than others.

[Decimation]

Shifting without the clutch is actually really smooth on my bike. I mean, it is a newer bike, and I haven't had much experience with other bikes. I can only really speak for myself. It almost feels like the thing runs better when I don't upshift with the clutch. I was having power issuess with it until the other day when I decided to "open it up" a little bit more than usual. I was banging through gears without the clutch all night and now it seems happier to let me ride it. feelsgoodman

[Moto-Brian]

But it causes pre-mature wear. I do it thru all gears up and down(except down to first) but it does indeed cause pre-mature wear and tear.

You are doing clutchless down shifts?????!!!!!

Clutchless up shifts aren't going to wear anything prematurely if done right. If you keep hammering the lever and it isn't going in, as serp stated, it can bend a shift fork...

Clutchless down shifts are something nobody does that I know of. I have heard of people doing it, but it is something that WOULD cause wear due to how much strain there is on the down shift side of things... Motor is revving higher when going down a gear and with constant mesh, it is almost destroying the tranny each time IF you can actually get that done...

Up shifting is easy due to the fact that the motor is not revving higher. It drops even slightly for the guys with quick shifters. Essentially, that's exactly what a quick shifter does - cuts the motor out ever so quickly to get that next gear...

To the OP, if wanting to "blip the throttle" before an upshift, it is not needed and actually a waste of time. As Serp stated also, only unless you are racing, should the revs be to redline and so high. But, to be quick, blips are not needed. Quick off the throttle, shift on the gas is fine enough... No extra rev needed.

On downshifts, for sure, a blip is best. Tries to match the RPMs to allow a smooth downshift. Again, the revs are higher going down a gear and that blip allows for it to be closer and smoother...

[Moto-Brian]

Not a fan of shifting without the clutch on a regular basis. You should know how to shift without the clutch, and be good at it. But it will eventually damage transmission parts. Older era motorcycles will suffer damage even faster, since they have a less sturdy transmission design.

Most motorcycles have a constant syncro mesh style design in all gears. That type of transmission has a certain RPM (velocity of the meshing gears) that will shift without the clutch. If you're right at that RPM, it's smooth. It will also shift without clutch at all other RPMs as well. It just won't quite be as happy about it.

You can feel it usually, if you put light pressure on the shift lever, as the tach is climbing or dropping, you'll feel it suddenly change gears at that meshing RPM.

I keep thinking about having to drive a truck with no syncro in first gear (or more), and having to double clutch it to synch the gears in order to up or down shift.

You just contradicted yourself and stated exactly why clutchless up shifts are fine - if done correctly - vs. down shifts. These guys doing down shifts w/o the clutch are doing harm...

[serpentracer]

my brother says he downshifts his FZ6 sometimes without the clutch and said it goes right in gear nice and smooth like upshifting.

I guess he still blips the throttle to do it.

I don't because a R6 has a very sensitive for lack of a better term, transmission. around town and lower rpm it can be a little clunky to shift. but once you get it at high rpms you can do it with or without the clutch and it's butter smooth.

Edited July 12, 2010 by serpentracer

[Decimation]

You are doing clutchless down shifts?????!!!!!

Clutchless up shifts aren't going to wear anything prematurely if done right. If you keep hammering the lever and it isn't going in, as serp stated, it can bend a shift fork...

Clutchless down shifts are something nobody does that I know of. I have heard of people doing it, but it is something that WOULD cause wear due to how much strain there is on the down shift side of things... Motor is revving higher when going down a gear and with constant mesh, it is almost destroying the tranny each time IF you can actually get that done...

Up shifting is easy due to the fact that the motor is not revving higher. It drops even slightly for the guys with quick shifters. Essentially, that's exactly what a quick shifter does - cuts the motor out ever so quickly to get that next gear...

To the OP, if wanting to "blip the throttle" before an upshift, it is not needed and actually a waste of time. As Serp stated also, only unless you are racing, should the revs be to redline and so high. But, to be quick, blips are not needed. Quick off the throttle, shift on the gas is fine enough... No extra rev needed.

On downshifts, for sure, a blip is best. Tries to match the RPMs to allow a smooth downshift. Again, the revs are higher going down a gear and that blip allows for it to be closer and smoother...

You lost me when you said that I don't need to "blip" the throttle to upshift without the clutch. Basically you're telling me that I can just pre-load the shifter as the RPMs are rising? I don't see how that would work...of course, I've never tried it.

[ReconRat]

You just contradicted yourself and stated exactly why clutchless up shifts are fine - if done correctly - vs. down shifts. These guys doing down shifts w/o the clutch are doing harm...

True, I'll agree with that.

Way back when... we'd actually stop and turn the bike off, if we missed a shift. And then sort out the transmission. Times change.

[jporter12]

You lost me when you said that I don't need to "blip" the throttle to upshift without the clutch. Basically you're telling me that I can just pre-load the shifter as the RPMs are rising? I don't see how that would work...of course, I've never tried it.

You let off the throttle, ever so quickly, then right back on, much like you do when shifting with the clutch, just a little quicker. Blipping the throttle is opening the throttle and letting off really quickly.

My Interceptor goes both ways, upshift and downshift, really smoothly. The gear ratios must be really close (i'll have to look them up.) To downshift, I do a slight blip, as I would using the clutch, and it drops right into the next lower gear. Not all bikes will downsift very well without the clutch. The ninja 250 does not like it at all. I can do it, but as harsh as it is, it can't be good for it. The interceptor is practically smoother without the clutch.

[jhaag]

the clutch is there for a reason. its not just for starting and stopping it also helps take some of the stress out of the rest of the drivetrain during shifting. in a synchromesh transmission the whole point of the syncros is to eliminate the need to manually match the engine speed to the road speed to allow the gear selection to take place. therefore, all you do when you dont use the clutch is put the added stress of the engines output on the synchros and transfer that stress to the rest of the drivetrain - gears, synchros, dogs, output shaft, bearings, chain, rear hub - as an instantaneous shock . the clutch is the consumable item in the system by design. so, instead of trying to get used to getting the timing right just use the clutch; you're not saving much time anyway. bedsides, you're doing all the time consuming motions of shifting already, just pull the clutch a bit while you're doing them. it just doesnt make sense not to.

[ReconRat]

... the clutch is the consumable item in the system by design...

There it is! All in one short sweet sentence.

[SAMBUSA]

"pre-mature" wear wasn't the best wording to use. More like unusual wear. The transmission has typical wear points. When you shift without the clutch, you cause wear in non-typical points. Doesn't harm it, per se.

And clutchless down shifts dont do harm......if you know what you're doing