The Government wants to suck you dry

[chevysoldier]

^^^

[John]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never spent any quality time outside the United States.

i was thinking the exact same thing.

[Cheech]

How is it exactly that he proved his argument false? That was 36.5% in Columbus... look at something like NYC. Taxes are out of control. You will hit close to 50% quick. Especially if you look at medicare, SS and such.

Source: http://www.yourmoneypage.com/withhold/ny2.php

Plugged in 70K (and that's cheap for NYC) with local taxes, Medicare, FICA, the whole bit.

Take home is 48,734.44. Please, try again. I can do this all night.

[dorifto240]

Source: http://www.yourmoneypage.com/withhold/ny2.php

Plugged in 70K (and that's cheap for NYC) with local taxes, Medicare, FICA, the whole bit.

Take home is 48,734.44. Please, try again. I can do this all night.

Your sarcastometer must have crossed wires with your ability to read. We're talking about 2011. And we can't wait until the costs of Obama-care come home!

No one is arguing about the 2010 tax, we're talking about the expiration of the Bush tax cuts. Which in addition to the 4% raise, also include cuts to deductions, and some changes to the actual tax brackets.

Obama can talk all he wants about limiting the expiration to $200,000 and up. Reality is a little simpler: They'll either let them all expire or not. To avoid a heated political battle and to put themselves into a position where they can blame the other: Both sides will do nothing.

[YSR_Racer_99]

Cheech, Where have you visited, what did you see that is better than America, what kept you from moving there, and why are you still living here?

[YSR_Racer_99]

Is it true that even though Obama said that absolutely, positively nobody making under $150k, then $200k, and finally $250k (as his campaigning rolled along) would pay any more taxes than they were at that time, but that taxes have already been raised? I don't get a salary/ standard paycheck, so don't have anything solid to compare to (other than my quarterly taxes), but have heard that peoples checks are smaller than they were when he got elected. New/ larger/ additional payroll taxes of some sort.

[alab32]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never spent any quality time outside the United States. You should probably change that before you make such blindingly jingoistic statements.

I have probably been in more countries than you have states... Been in many countries... been in there hospitals... been in there schools... You dont want to have that argument...

[dorifto240]

As much as I don't like it, I've got to go with cheech on this one. He just pwned the fuck out of you, and proved the bush tax cuts really don't effect most of the country. How many people here make more than $250,000? I will venture a guess and say, two, maybe three people. That would be our supporters that own businesses.

Low income conservatives arguing for bush tax cuts is just silly. The political bullshit in this country has become so high, that it has actually overpowered the human instinct of self interest. Amazing.

I like to consider myself a fiscal conservative, but its time to pay the piper. The federal government needs to do what all the local governments are doing: cut back, and raise taxes. While this doesn't sound like the typical theory of "fiscal conservatism" on the surface, it really is the way back to it. Thinking big picture, if we get the federal government to cut back on social programs, and focus on balancing a budget, we'll find ourselves in a time where the government CAN afford to lower taxes and not have to make sacrifices or fuck up the economy. (Sorry for that last, very long, run-on sentence)

Pay the piper? The IRS is one of the most wasteful and inefficient agencies on the planet. They fail to collect roughly $4 Billion a year. A YEAR! Excuse me if I'm loathe to fork out more money to poorly run, wasteful government.

Beyond that, the odds of our representatives actually doing more than letting them expire across the board are slim to none. They're going to have to fight the same amount to negotiate an upper limit as they are to save the whole thing. So they'll probably let it slide.

Secondly, raising taxes during a recession has almost never been a good idea. Higher taxes discourage spending, spending as we know drives the economy. Discouraging spending in a slow economy is akin to shooting yourself in the foot before you run a race.

My instinct for self preservation is apparently operating just fine, but by all means keep looking at shortsighted political "bullshit" and calling it self preservation.

[Disclaimer]

Is it true that even though Obama said that absolutely, positively nobody making under $150k, then $200k, and finally $250k (as his campaigning rolled along) would pay any more taxes than they were at that time, but that taxes have already been raised? I don't get a salary/ standard paycheck, so don't have anything solid to compare to (other than my quarterly taxes), but have heard that peoples checks are smaller than they were when he got elected. New/ larger/ additional payroll taxes of some sort.

I heard you're the type that believes everything he hears because independent thinking is beyond your abilities.

That's just what I heard...

Ohh, and as for your quote, you're wrong. I've already shown it in another thread that Obama increased take home pay and effectively lowered taxes in other threads.

http://www.ohio-riders.com/showpost.php?p=488020&postcount=46

http://www.ohio-riders.com/showpost.php?p=467948&postcount=11

[Disclaimer]

Pay the piper? The IRS is one of the most wasteful and inefficient agencies on the planet. They fail to collect roughly $4 Billion a year. A YEAR! Excuse me if I'm loathe to fork out more money to poorly run, wasteful government.

Source?

Secondly, raising taxes during a recession has almost never been a good idea. Higher taxes discourage spending, spending as we know drives the economy. Discouraging spending in a slow economy is akin to shooting yourself in the foot before you run a race.

Full of partial truths. Higher taxes do, generally speaking, discourage spending. So do higher interest rates. But what SO many people who get into these political argument fail to account for is math and real numbers -- the higher taxes are on incomes > $250k, and they by-and-large do NOT drive the economy. Consumer spending drives 70% of the economy.(http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748703447104575117942059388092.html)

Guess who does all that spending... the people making < $250k/yr. You know why? Because there's a HELLUVA lot more of those people than the other people. 1.5% of people make > $250k... so there's NO WAY "discouraging spending" on 1.5% of people will make enough impact as the other 98.5% who have lower taxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Please explain how taxing AGI's > $250k and lowering taxes (however slight) for the rest is going to discourage spending? Also, take into account that the "rich" know the tax havens and how to hide their money a lot better than the common folks -- so many of them don't even pay their fair share anyway.

[dorifto240]

Full of partial truths. Higher taxes do, generally speaking, discourage spending. So do higher interest rates. But what SO many people who get into these political argument fail to account for is math and real numbers -- the higher taxes are on incomes > $250k, and they by-and-large do NOT drive the economy. Consumer spending drives 70% of the economy.(http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748703447104575117942059388092.html)

Apparently you failed to read my full post and chose to cherry pick; it's cool though.

The Democrats are going to have to fight the Republicans as hard to get only the tax cuts to expire for those making above $250,000 a year as they will to let the entire thing expire. Especially since Geithner made the mistake of saying it looks good to the rest of the world. That was a serious faux pas (about as bad as anytime Joe Biden opens his mouth). Since letting the tax cuts expire can now be spun as un-American. Playing into the growing discontent with the current administration.

Everyone is tired from the health care and stimulus fights. No one wants to touch this during an election year.

I misspoke on taxes, and under estimated the amount:

http://taxes.suite101.com/article.cfm/how-much-tax-money-does-irs-fail-to-collect

It's all good, let's raise taxes instead of figuring out how to better collect the ones we've already got.

[Disclaimer]

Misspoke? That's considered being "misspoken" when you're off by 98%?

Let's see... you said

Pay the piper? The IRS is one of the most wasteful and inefficient agencies on the planet. They fail to collect roughly $4 Billion a year. A YEAR!

The link you posted and more closer to the truth (most likely) is...

In the United States, about 84% of income taxes owed are paid in a timely way. That means, however, that tax evasion cheats the IRS of over $300 billion each year.

Either way, you were misinformed -- what else are you blindly spouting off misinformed opinions on? How can you be trusted now?

Also -- as you accuse me of cherry picking, you did the same thing, you chose to ignore the math and figures on consumer spending and them driving the economy and continue to argue about putting a ceiling on the tax cuts -- do you even know what tax cuts they're letting expire? And how it affect you?

It appears you're once again misinformed. Let me enlighten you.

http://www.smartonmoney.com/bush-tax-cuts-set-to-expire-in-2011-will-you-be-paying-more/

What is the likelihood Obama's budget won't be approved by Congress? That's a rhetorical question...

[chevysoldier]

How do you get taxed 10% on $0? That's BS right there.

[wrillo]

http://fora.tv/2010/04/26/David_Harvey_The_Crises_of_Capitalism_Animated

[dorifto240]

Misspoke? That's considered being "misspoken" when you're off by 98%?

Let's see... you said

The link you posted and more closer to the truth (most likely) is...

Either way, you were misinformed -- what else are you blindly spouting off misinformed opinions on? How can you be trusted now?

Also -- as you accuse me of cherry picking, you did the same thing, you chose to ignore the math and figures on consumer spending and them driving the economy and continue to argue about putting a ceiling on the tax cuts -- do you even know what tax cuts they're letting expire? And how it affect you?

It appears you're once again misinformed. Let me enlighten you.

http://www.smartonmoney.com/bush-tax-cuts-set-to-expire-in-2011-will-you-be-paying-more/

What is the likelihood Obama's budget won't be approved by Congress? That's a rhetorical question...

I'm suspect and misinformed? Oh really, I'll just put away my college degree, NY Times email subscription, CNN, Bloomgburg Business AND FOXnews channel watching, and my subscription to Businessweek away then and continue being "uninformed."

Just like a liberal though offering enlightenment to those who disagree with your opinions. The Spanish did that during the Inquisition...

Or I should say, attempting to force enlightenment

Edited August 25, 2010 by dorifto240

[Disclaimer]

Please... education and information... get it away!!! No, stop. I don't want to learn!!

As far as your credentials and e-mail subscriptions

Though I could've misspoken...? I dunno, I mean, if you can be off by $296 billion from a correct number, I can be off a little bit on my read on you without you taking too much issue with it, right?

Btw.. you're still avoiding the issues. Don't get butthurt about being called out for being misinformed when it's right there, quoted, that you were. We're having a discussion -- feel free to correct me when I'm misinformed or don't have supporting documentation. I'm open-minded enough to deal with criticisms.

Edited August 25, 2010 by JRMMiii

[wrillo]

http://fora.tv/2010/04/26/David_Harvey_The_Crises_of_Capitalism_Animated

Please... education and information... get it away!!! No, stop. I don't want to learn!!

blah blah blah

Btw.. you're still avoiding the issues. Don't get butthurt about being called out for being misinformed when it's right there, quoted, that you were. We're having a discussion -- feel free to correct me when I'm misinformed or don't have supporting documentation. I'm open-minded enough to deal with criticisms.

Hey, did you watch the video I posted? I sorted threw it out there because I thought you'd like it. It has pretty pictures and everything, but very interesting take on everything

[Disclaimer]

Yea.. It was on digg (I assume that's where you got it).

Most people aren't going to have the patience to sit through 11 mins of that though. I bet 90% hit the little red 'x' button when he starts to analyze from the Marxist perspective.

[that dude]

I wants sum goberment cheese

[dorifto240]

My number was wrong regarding the IRS, however my overall assertion was still correct and still valid. We'll just go ahead, ignore that, and write off everything I've ever said, apparently, as suspect, misinformed, and ultimately incorrect.

My math regarding taxes was valid, and as I even stated: didn't include the loss of deductions that will occur if the Bush Tax cuts will expire, nor did it include the other taxes we all pay everyday, or the deductions taken out for things like Social Security. Meaning that we're looking at a much higher amount paid to the government. Go ahead and keep arguing about the 4% federal tax hike, I'll continue to actually look at the full amount of taxes we pay

In regards to the chances of the Bush Tax cuts actually being debated are slim. Again, the Republicans are going to defend and stonewall as fiercely for letting the tax cuts expire for those above $200,000 as they are for letting the entire thing expire. And as you've said yourself:

Or... you can realize that the Democrats were stonewalled by the remaining Republicans in a show of the highest levels of political obstructionism in history.

Why suddenly would they stop stonewalling the Democrats and allow them to carry on with their plan to allow tax cuts to expire? If we're really dealing with the highest levels of obstructionism in history, then the chances of these tax cuts expiring without a fight are slim to none. Everyone's already tired politically from the stimulus fight, from the health care fight, and its an election year. So I highly doubt we'll see any politiciking on this one to only limit it to the top wage earners in America. In my supposedly uninformed opinion, one of two things will happen: either the tax cuts will expire entirely, and we'll be looking at higher taxes, and a cut in many deductions; or nothing will change.

But by all means put up pictures of LOLcatz and Cheech can keep posting up HURR DURR sharks as though that somehow proves your position correct. I forgot that mockery was a valid tactic for a debate and that a funny internet photo is an automatic win.

I also forgot that my position disagrees with yours, which of course automatically makes me wrong. Silly me. I could put up fact after fact after fact, and I would still just be a sad, ignorant misinformed conservative clinging to my guns and my bible.

[Disclaimer]

Well, I think we can at least both agree you lack a sense of humor.

I don't care who you are LOLCats are teh funniez. You and YSR are the only ones that take offense to this "mockery". Since neither of you can take a little playful ribbing without getting your e-feelings hurt -- I guess I feel bad for you, taking the internet all serious and such. That's kind what we do here... if you haven't figured it out. I haven't called you any names have I?

Enjoy your read of the good book and your guns, because you're not getting any traction in this debate, you were using wrong numbers doing fuzzy math, and you're still arguing about Republicans being obstructionists on the tax cuts and yet can't look far enough to realize that's only a VERY small portion of the budgetary/tax picture.

Edited August 25, 2010 by JRMMiii

[dorifto240]

Since we've never met in real life those are pretty bold claims to make

[alab32]

Since we've never met in real life those are pretty bold claims to make

The internet is full of bold claims and assumptions...

[imprez55]

I have to add to the fun pictures, I want to win too

I guess chevy got his wish with a fight regardless of the original topic. You know this thread got started by talking about long established tax laws? Now we are on the verge of being derailed into a straight up left v right debate.

I love facts and sources, the problem with them is 98% of people (http://www.factsaboutpeople/all.../38345.html) don't pay attention or fact check people's claims even with sources. This discussion was derailed from the start, so lashing out at people for not having facts immediately is a little harsh. It would be a different story if this was the original topic of discussion.

You never or going to change each others' points of view, its painfully obvious as nothing has been conceded on either side. So for the sake of argument, maybe personal attacks should be left out and each point in a post be matched with a rebuttal. Also, generalized claims based on a single point should be left out, no one is fooled by that here. I was enjoying the discussion for a while, lets get back to that. Also, most of you are winning right now anyway, at least half of you are probably posting from work. Getting paid for being on OR is definitely a win in my book.

[20thGix]

My "Facts" say this. Your "Facts" say that. So which "Facts" are fact, opinion or interpetation?

Graph 1 shows during the given time period taxes never changed much for the top 1%

On graph 2 you could argue that taxes are 1/5 of its peak in the mid 90's.

These are showing the same data just in a different way. The point im trying to make is that some "Facts" presented by both sides can be presented whichever way support thier agenda. In the end everyone is right in there own mind.

Edited August 26, 2010 by 20thGix