S&P gave the US a negative outlook today

[fusion]

Here are some more percentages for you. When Bush came into office, the debt to GDP ratio was at 57.7%. When he left office, it was at 74.1%, the worst in history. It took him eight years to raise it 16.4%. Obama has raised it to 95.1%, an incredible 21%, in just two years. You really think this is progress?

That take into account the changes that the Obama administration is accounting for like Iraq and Afghanistan, whole costs of Medicare reimbursements, and others?

Amazing what it does to the figure when you suddenly have to account for billions more that wasn't included previously.

[buildit]

Oh yeah?

Phoenix, fast typing and big fingers.

[buildit]

Amazing what it does to the figure when you suddenly have to account for billions more that wasn't included previously.

I remember Bush saying the same thing about the Clinton surplus suddenly being gone.

Let's face it NO one president had the shovel the whole time but the hole still got dug. Each one had their part and now we need to fix it. Choices are the following.

1. Drastically cut all government spending and raise taxes on everyone.

2. Pull out of every armed conflict and fire the military.

3. Sit around scratching our collective asses and act like nothing is going on.

So far #3 HAS been the choice.

[jarvismb]

I realize these are real issues, but my ass does itch, though

[SpeedTriple44444]

You can argue all you want about who is to blame, or what we should do, but the situation is that the ship is sinking, and we're all on our way down. It's too late to patch things. Thank you greedy worthless politicians and people of the last 100 years. I will have nothing to leave my kids unless they learn Chinese.

[C-bus]

Buy moar ammo.

[Casper]

That take into account the changes that the Obama administration is accounting for like Iraq and Afghanistan, whole costs of Medicare reimbursements, and others?

Amazing what it does to the figure when you suddenly have to account for billions more that wasn't included previously.

Iraq and Afghanistan are Obama's impregnated prom dates. He swore he'd pull out.

Seriously though, he had the opportunity to fix that problem. He instead stayed on course.

For the record, since I think you all are getting something wrong here, I'm not a Bush supporter.

[Casper]

I regularly cited myself on my thesis. The professors loved that I could think for myself.

Would you quote www.good.is in a thesis paper? www.crooksandliars.com? The op-ed section of The Economist? I might quote the Guardian, maybe. I would quote the New York Times, and that was really the only non-biased article he posted. It's quite true, doing nothing would help, a lot. If Congress doesn't extend the Bush tax cuts, revenue will obviously go up. As well, if they do nothing, there will be no increases in spending and the debt ceiling won't be raised. Is it the best solution? Probably not. Would it be effective? Yup.

[Disclaimer]

All those "op-ed" articles have underlying source material... just like the Wiki figures you quoted on the debt-to-GDP ratio, which only take into account certain parts of the debt if you really dig into the Wiki source (CIA Factbook).

So, yea, I would feel comfortable using those as sources as long as I vetted the underlying material.

[jbot]

coincidentally, i'll be giving out "how to speak mandarin chinese" at the next nelson date in may.

.....lol

[RFM]

coincidentally, i'll be giving out "how to speak mandarin chinese" at the next nelson date in may.

.....lol

Hahahaha!!! I'd rep you if I could.. Do you have any good dog recipes??

[shittygsxr]

if you blame someone enough it will all go away.

China has an economy smaller than ours with 4x the people. They do not own us.

The reason that 10% of the country has 90% of the wealth is because most of the people in this country are assholes that spend every dollar they have.

Those 10% of the population that control all the wealth are called old people, and they got it from a lifetime of hard work.

I bet if you have a positive net worth you are in the minority.

If we cut our military in half we will still have the largest military in the world.

If everybody paid their share of the taxes, I bet the people in the middle wouldn't be doing so bad.

Your entitled to what you work hard for. The "clinton, everybody deserves a house" is what pushed real estate prices up (artificial demand) so after the defaults (from people who should not have had mortgages in the first place) that is why real estate prices dropped. They are the ones that cost me all of the equity in my home.

[Disclaimer]

Should've invested in a shittyhouse instead of a shittygsxr, you would've lost less.

[Casper]

Here are a few of my ideas, some I've stated before. I have more. I'm trying to consolidate them.

- Stop all foreign aid. In the last ten years, we have given Israel over $24.7 billion and Egypt over $17.9 billion. We've given them $42.6 billion in the past ten years. Total we shelled out over $44.9 billion in foreign aid in 2009 alone. That's $5 billion more than what Congress just agreed to cut out of our entire budget for this fiscal year.

- Flat tax or "fair tax". I'm becoming a fan of the fair tax idea, or even a combination of the two.

- Cut all forms of welfare and unemployment. Instead of just sending them a check, put them to work on public works projects. Our infrastructure is crumbling. Bridges, levies, highways, dams, etc are all in need of rebuilding. This idea works. It's been proven. Any decent human would rather be paid for work done than given a handout. We have lots of public works projects needing workers, and we have lots of workers needing work, lots of whom we're already paying. This one really solves itself. You want an unemployment check? Go pick up litter on the side of the road, help sandbag a river, help stop a forest fire, help build a school, etc and we'll pay you for it. Not only will this get needed things done, it'll discourage those trying to abuse the system. It's a win win.

- Bring the troops home. We are not the world police (America, fuck yeah! Ha, beat you all to it). Bring them home to take care of the US. Put them to work on the public works projects, or even managing them.

- Don't cut military spending, but redirect that money to research and development. Instead of constantly funding the offense, we should be funding defense. Protect our country from possible attack.

[Casper]

All those "op-ed" articles have underlying source material... just like the Wiki figures you quoted on the debt-to-GDP ratio, which only take into account certain parts of the debt if you really dig into the Wiki source (CIA Factbook).

So, yea, I would feel comfortable using those as sources as long as I vetted the underlying material.

I didn't quote Wikipedia amigo. I pulled all the numbers from www.cbo.gov, www.treasurydirect.gov, and www.presidentialdebt.org and did the calculations myself. I thought for myself. You should try it.

[Casper]

if you blame someone enough it will all go away.

China has an economy smaller than ours with 4x the people. They do not own us.

The reason that 10% of the country has 90% of the wealth is because most of the people in this country are assholes that spend every dollar they have.

Those 10% of the population that control all the wealth are called old people, and they got it from a lifetime of hard work.

I bet if you have a positive net worth you are in the minority.

If we cut our military in half we will still have the largest military in the world.

If everybody paid their share of the taxes, I bet the people in the middle wouldn't be doing so bad.

Your entitled to what you work hard for. The "clinton, everybody deserves a house" is what pushed real estate prices up (artificial demand) so after the defaults (from people who should not have had mortgages in the first place) that is why real estate prices dropped. They are the ones that cost me all of the equity in my home.

They own the largest share, currently at $1.154 trillion.

Quoted from http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt, incase anyone wants to accuse me of using Wikipedia again.

[Disclaimer]

Here are a few of my ideas, some I've stated before. I have more. I'm trying to consolidate them.

And those are fine ideas, and it's much easier to shoot holes in them than to come up with them, but please allow me to shoot holes -- since "trolls shoot holes".

- Stop all foreign aid. In the last ten years, we have given Israel over $24.7 billion and Egypt over $17.9 billion. We've given them $42.6 billion in the past ten years. Total we shelled out over $44.9 billion in foreign aid in 2009 alone. That's $5 billion more than what Congress just agreed to cut out of our entire budget for this fiscal year.

Not bad, but hardly a dent in the grand scheme.

- Flat tax or "fair tax". I'm becoming a fan of the fair tax idea, or even a combination of the two.

I oppose a flat tax, as do most economists versed in this area, but a consumption or VAT tax may meet my personal approval.

- Cut all forms of welfare and unemployment. Instead of just sending them a check, put them to work on public works projects. Our infrastructure is crumbling. Bridges, levies, highways, dams, etc are all in need of rebuilding. This idea works. It's been proven. Any decent human would rather be paid for work done than given a handout. We have lots of public works projects needing workers, and we have lots of workers needing work, lots of whom we're already paying. This one really solves itself. You want an unemployment check? Go pick up litter on the side of the road, help sandbag a river, help stop a forest fire, help build a school, etc and we'll pay you for it. Not only will this get needed things done, it'll discourage those trying to abuse the system. It's a win win.

No, I absolutely do not want these people anywhere near projects that would put my life and others in danger if they weren't done by someone with the physical and mental competence to do them (you really want welfare people to build a bridge you drive on?). Consider the meager welfare pay as "compensation for not f*(king up the productivity of everyone and everything else that knows WTF they're doing".

I think you have a better idea than that in you.

- Bring the troops home. We are not the world police (America, fuck yeah! Ha, beat you all to it). Bring them home to take care of the US. Put them to work on the public works projects, or even managing them.

Score.

- Don't cut military spending, but redirect that money to research and development. Instead of constantly funding the offense, we should be funding defense. Protect our country from possible attack.

Disagree, there's plenty of money that can be cut plus have R&D. So I agree on the shifting of funds, but disagree to maintain current levels.

[John]

Those 10% of the population that control all the wealth are called old people, and they got it from a lifetime of hard work.

hard work has nothing to do with it. its all about connections. thats what you always told me at the warehouse. people get their cushy director job because a friend recommended them, not because they are the most capable for the position.

you can be the hardest worker a company has, but is that really going to help you get promoted over the son of the CEO?

[Casper]

And those are fine ideas, and it's much easier to shoot holes in them than to come up with them, but please allow me to shoot holes -- since "trolls shoot holes".

You are a troll.

Not bad, but hardly a dent in the grand scheme.

Not hardly a dent, but still more than what Congress just approved to cut for the year. So by cutting foreign aid, you'd more than double the cuts. With enough drops, you can and will fill a bucket.

I oppose a flat tax, as do most economists versed in this area, but a consumption or VAT tax may meet my personal approval.

The "fair tax" is a consumption tax. It's a Federal sales tax. As for most versed economists opposing the flat tax, I have to disagree. More and more are looking at the idea, and watching countries who've implemented it. Estonia and Latvia recently went to a flat tax. Both sides are using them as examples; the left blames their sudden drop in GDP on the flat tax, and the right credits their low debt to GDP (like 7% according to www.cia.gov) to the flat tax. Well looking at the world economy, I'd say it's safe to say their drop in GDP was probably more likely to be the fact that the recession took hold and purchasers of their exported goods dropped, just like everywhere else. Either way, there's an argument there. But even Steve Forbes is pro-flat tax.

No, I absolutely do not want these people anywhere near projects that would put my life and others in danger if they weren't done by someone with the physical and mental competence to do them (you really want welfare people to build a bridge you drive on?). Consider the meager welfare pay as "compensation for not f*(king up the productivity of everyone and everything else that knows WTF they're doing".

I think you have a better idea than that in you.

I disagree. First off, you're stereotyping all on welfare as worthless. I'm including unemployment in welfare when I say this. I know several people, too many actually, that are currently on unemployment or were recently who would've jumped at this idea. You think paying the lowest bidder (which we currently do) to do the job is a better idea?

Disagree, there's plenty of money that can be cut plus have R&D. So I agree on the shifting of funds, but disagree to maintain current levels.

I worded it poorly. Of the $685.1 billion budgeted for the military for 2010, $79.1 billion went to R&D and $283.3 billion went to operations. If we brought our troops home, but continued to pay them to do public works, we'd save a boatload of cash. This cash could be put into R&D for more efficient defense systems, allowing us to maintain our troops at home and not needing to go overseas. The money spent on R&D would ensure we could maintain the lower amount spend on operations, thus slowing if not stopping the increase in total money spent on the military. Essentially, freeze the military's budget. Could cuts be made? Sure, but my idea is a great first step.

[Casper]

hard work has nothing to do with it. its all about connections. thats what you always told me at the warehouse. people get their cushy director job because a friend recommended them, not because they are the most capable for the position.

you can be the hardest worker a company has, but is that really going to help you get promoted over the son of the CEO?

Not only that, if you're the hardest worker, why would they remove you from a position where you're directly benefiting them to put you into a management position?

[fusion]

Iraq and Afghanistan are Obama's impregnated prom dates. He swore he'd pull out.

Seriously though, he had the opportunity to fix that problem. He instead stayed on course.

For the record, since I think you all are getting something wrong here, I'm not a Bush supporter.

You know nothing about the military if you think that Obama could have pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan or even shut down Guantanamo already. Going in is easy pulling out is hard...just ask your Dad.

I never said you're a Bush supporter, but you compared two unalike numbers claiming Obama is causing even larger debt growth already in his term compared to Bush without taking into account the increased accountability of spending in some big areas.

[chevysoldier]

- Cut all forms of welfare and unemployment. Instead of just sending them a check, put them to work on public works projects. Our infrastructure is crumbling. Bridges, levies, highways, dams, etc are all in need of rebuilding. This idea works. It's been proven. Any decent human would rather be paid for work done than given a handout. We have lots of public works projects needing workers, and we have lots of workers needing work, lots of whom we're already paying. This one really solves itself. You want an unemployment check? Go pick up litter on the side of the road, help sandbag a river, help stop a forest fire, help build a school, etc and we'll pay you for it. Not only will this get needed things done, it'll discourage those trying to abuse the system. It's a win win.

Wasn't this tried before? The Civilian Conservation Corps?

[Disclaimer]

Wasn't this tried before? The Civilian Conservation Corps?

Nope.

Completely fresh idea, Casper thought of it himself. Everyone before him was obviously too dumb to come up with anything original.

I'm really trying Casper's approach and thinking on my own and doing my own calculations, but it's hard because everywhere I turn, someone's already thought of it. Like math, I feel guilty using math because I didn't think of it.

Edited April 18, 2011 by JRMMiii

[Casper]

Wasn't this tried before? The Civilian Conservation Corps?

Sort of. It was limited to young, single men and the money went to their parents. In it's form, it worked very well. Only reason it doesn't exist still is because the depression was ending, leaving less unemployed, and the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, sending us into war.

[Casper]

Nope.

Completely fresh idea, Casper thought of it himself. Everyone before him was obviously too dumb to come up with anything original.

I'm really trying Casper's approach and thinking on my own and doing my own calculations, but it's hard because everywhere I turn, someone's already thought of it. Like math, I feel guilty using math because I didn't think of it.

What I said was not the same as the Civilian Conservation Corps. Similar. Not the same.

I never said my ideas were unique nor original. Flat tax/fair tax aren't my creations either. Just things I think would work better than the way we currently do things. What were your ideas for improvement?