Moto Series Round 1: April 27-29

[2Wheeler]

Dude, we are talking racers here. If you are an Intermediate rider at track days, you really shouldn't be racing. No offense.

Seems like your the one offended.

I want to race to make me faster. I dont think dodging slower bikes in intermediate is working.

Isn't that what the "NOVICE" class is for.

[Photos by Marty]

thanks for the offer marty but if craig is going to be in the pits near me I'll just share his.

I see how you are, just using me for pictures and that's fine by me.

If anyone else needs a generator, let me know.

[redkow97]

Seems like your the one offended.

I want to race to make me faster. I dont think dodging slower bikes in intermediate is working.

Isn't that what the "NOVICE" class is for.

And you won't be the slowest guy racing. Not by a long shot.

In my 4 lap WERA mock race, I was turning leisurely 1:20's. A friend of mine who was behind me on his SV said he could have passed me multiple times into 12. Two other riders and I nearly LAPPED a guy. We could have easily done so on our cool-down lap. That's in a 4-lap mock race. He couldn't have been going any quicker than 1:40's for us to catch him like that, and he is a licensed racer with WERA.

someone will always be last.

[blue03636]

I have started to pigeon-hole myself as a guy who can only go fast(ish) at beaver.

You don't want to be that guy, the women don't like the fast guys a beaver.

[r1crusher]

I think Brian was confusing someone else with me on the cost differences.

In any case, I, as a mid pack intermediate rider want to progress enough this year to make it into the advanced group (as I said in another post somewhere). Would going to a race tire now really benefit me as it's likely that I'm not even close to pushing the limits of say a set of Q2's or Pures?

This is what I'm struggling with at the moment. I fully understand what Brian is saying but I can also agree with some of what Chris is saying as well. I know I'm not pushing myself personally enough yet to make me go above the potential of the tires, even if I do make it into the A group. Having seen Brandon, Craig, Jinu, Nick, etc. all run on street/race tires and put up respectable times I don't see how shelling out for full race shoes will make me a faster rider, right now. Those guys have been pushing the limits of a lesser tire and obviously can take full advantage of moving to a true race tire.

This is my quandary and I'm just trying to do what makes sense to get me into that A group this season.

[blue03636]

Kevin, just to give you some numbers

Beavrun: race tires 1:06s, street tires add about 3 seconds

Nelsons: race tires 1:17s, street tires add about 2 seconds

Grattan: race tires 1:28s, street tires add about 4 seconds and they turn to snot about half way through a session.

They will help with confidence and you will go faster on them once you see how crazy sticky they are. Are they needed for I group, not really, are they needed for A group, not really, but this all boils down to ability. It just makes one less thing to worry about to allow your mind to clear and go quicker.

[madcat6183]

And you won't be the slowest guy racing. Not by a long shot.

In my 4 lap WERA mock race, I was turning leisurely 1:20's. A friend of mine who was behind me on his SV said he could have passed me multiple times into 12. Two other riders and I nearly LAPPED a guy. We could have easily done so on our cool-down lap. That's in a 4-lap mock race. He couldn't have been going any quicker than 1:40's for us to catch him like that, and he is a licensed racer with WERA.

someone will always be last.

Wait, you were running 1:20's at Nelson in a 4 lap mock race and able to lap someone, or close to it/would have in 5 laps? Is that a bad joke? Was he running a scooter? I mean I ran a 1.24 last year in the race just to get past my prov. license and that was with being lapped twice by KTM and Andrew, and 1 time by Craig and 1 other dude on what I beleive was an ex-STG Race Bike with a lot of work etc. Anyways, my point to that comment was if that's the case then WERA must be letting some seriouly slow dudes run where they shouldn't be. MotoSeries wouldn't have allowed that, I know that for sure. I was by far the slowest, and wouldn't run this year at that pace, I would have ot be quicker or I wouldn't race.

Okay, I know we are talking about tires, but can we get some more gayness, I've had a miserable week and need this.

[r1crusher]

I have to be honest. I do think about my tires a bit when I'm trying to up my personal pace and I'm betting it's holding me back. No question. My proof was at Mid-O last year when I hooked up with Chris (staffer) for a tow. I put my head down and just made every effort to follow his lines and match is his moves braking and accelerating. Bam! 3 seconds off my lap time just like that. Was I pushing the Q2's I was on, probably not in the slightest still.

Will they make me faster, sure. But only once I'm able to mentally tell myself to not worry about them.

Does that make sense?

[blue03636]

I have to be honest. I do think about my tires a bit when I'm trying to up my personal pace and I'm betting it's holding me back. No question. My proof was at Mid-O last year when I hooked up with Chris (staffer) for a tow. I put my head down and just made every effort to follow his lines and match is his moves braking and accelerating. Bam! 3 seconds off my lap time just like that. Was I pushing the Q2's I was on, probably not in the slightest still.

Will they make me faster, sure. But only once I'm able to mentally tell myself to not worry about them.

Does that make sense?

The only thing you push is Steve's stool.

I honestly push everything out of my head when I go out. I don't want to be thinking of anything. As soon as I start over thinking the slower I will go. The tires should give you a warning before you go too far unless you roll up to T1 and say "I got this" and try to blast through it 20 mph faster than you ever had. Again, probably not the tires fault more rider ability. Seat time is huge and making the most of it every time out is the key.

[redkow97]

Wait, you were running 1:20's at Nelson in a 4 lap mock race and able to lap someone, or close to it/would have in 5 laps? Is that a bad joke? Was he running a scooter? I mean I ran a 1.24 last year in the race just to get past my prov. license and that was with being lapped twice by KTM and Andrew, and 1 time by Craig and 1 other dude on what I beleive was an ex-STG Race Bike with a lot of work etc. Anyways, my point to that comment was if that's the case then WERA must be letting some seriouly slow dudes run where they shouldn't be. MotoSeries wouldn't have allowed that, I know that for sure. I was by far the slowest, and wouldn't run this year at that pace, I would have ot be quicker or I wouldn't race.

I might have been turning more like 1:22's, because Steve and Nathan(?) came up to me on the grid and reminded me, "remember: DON'T CRASH." But that would mean the guy would have been going even SLOWER.

Otherwise, yes, your understanding is exactly what I meant to convey. Myself, and two other guys in my race school (one on an SV650), could have lapped one of the other school riders on our cool-down lap. He was on a 600RR that was newer than mine (05/06 era). If we'd continued at our 'race' pace, we would have caught him around turn 4. Even at a cool-down pace, we had to back off to avoid passing him on the back straight. We were waving to corner workers, and he was still 'racing' a few hundred feet ahead of us.

I don't imagine he was breaking 1:40. If memory serves, MotoSeries publishes a 1:30 max lap, or they can pull you from the grid. WERA has a discretionary rule that allows them to do the same, but I have never seen or heard of it being done. Maybe back in the 90's, when the grids were bigger, but lately there's only 10-15 riders to lap any backmarkers.

And to get back on topic with our tire discussion, I don't fully agree that the times Craig posted are the 'limits' of street tires (not that he said they were), but I completely agree that better tires can lead to more confidence, and THAT certainly facilitates improvement.

If you're struggling mentally, then better tires might be worth the extra cash.

[Mykill]

I was having same dilemma. I riding the piss out of my PP2CT at Jennings and having them "slip" some on me. I stepped up to pures and havent had a chance to run them yet lol. My thinking is why step up in tires if I can get the most out of the ones I am using. As soon as I can push the Pures to more of their limit then Ill upgrade which should be at the end of their life. I dont want to rely on race tires and warmers. We'll see how Putnam goes and my speed compared to Johns. If I cant keep up and whether its me or the tires.

[blue03636]

I never said they were the limits, those are my times.

[madcat6183]

I was having same dilemma. I riding the piss out of my PP2CT at Jennings and having them "slip" some on me. I stepped up to pures and havent had a chance to run them yet lol. My thinking is why step up in tires if I can get the most out of the ones I am using. As soon as I can push the Pures to more of their limit then Ill upgrade which should be at the end of their life. I dont want to rely on race tires and warmers. We'll see how Putnam goes and my speed compared to Johns. If I cant keep up and whether its me or the tires.

Ya man, I think you'll love the Pures, I do/did.

Are you spooning with me or is Craig at Putnam? I need to plan these things out. I think Andy might be a tough one to fight off though.

[jbot]

i will say that for me, q2's have held up better against squirrelyness for longer and at a quicker pace (again, that's for me, otherwise would be considered laughable) than PP2CT or pures or BT016's. there was one turn at beaver (the downhill right that is off camber) that would often make the rear slip just ever so slightly, but enough to make me feel really uneasy. the q2 would do that same, but not until about 15 minutes in at what i would consider a "fast" pace for me. so someone that is running quicker times than me would probably make them melt a bit faster. keep in mind, there is also the issue of how smooth i was being (probably not very) that affects how the tires react.

that all said, definitely race tires will give you more confidence. I've been putting it off for a while (being a stupid cheap bastard) although i did run a race front with a pure rear. didn't really like that combo (loool) so this year i will try race tires front and back. i'll probably try dunlop race tires once i'm done with my stock of michelin tires and see how i like them.

good advice in this thread guys!

[madcat6183]

i will say that for me, q2's have held up better against squirrelyness for longer and at a quicker pace (again, that's for me, otherwise would be considered laughable) than PP2CT or pures or BT016's. there was one turn at beaver (the downhill right that is off camber) that would often make the rear slip just ever so slightly, but enough to make me feel really uneasy. the q2 would do that same, but not until about 15 minutes in at what i would consider a "fast" pace for me. so someone that is running quicker times than me would probably make them melt a bit faster. keep in mind, there is also the issue of how smooth i was being (probably not very) that affects how the tires react.

that all said, definitely race tires will give you more confidence. I've been putting it off for a while (being a stupid cheap bastard) although i did run a race front with a pure rear. didn't really like that combo (loool) so this year i will try race tires front and back. i'll probably try dunlop race tires once i'm done with my stock of michelin tires and see how i like them.

good advice in this thread guys!

All that and not one ghey comment? WTF, take it back.

[ama146]

this is where I will be getting my 003's from this year if anyone else is looking for them online

unless these are sold trackside at motoseries events?!

http://mizemotors.com/bridgestoneracedot.aspx

[Photos by Marty]

this is where I will be getting my 003's from this year if anyone else is looking for them online

unless these are sold trackside at motoseries events?!

http://mizemotors.com/bridgestoneracedot.aspx

Mize will be at the track for the Motoseries events.

[TRMN8TR]

Mize will be at the track for the Motoseries events.

Hopefully running that ragged out bike of his battling for the lead in the SV races. Until he gets tired out and falls back, haha.

[Moto-Brian]

Seems like your the one offended.

I want to race to make me faster. I dont think dodging slower bikes in intermediate is working.

Isn't that what the "NOVICE" class is for.

Uh, not sure where I remotely gave off the idea I was offended. A lot of guys on here will tell you that I am ALWAYS one to help and willing to help anyone at any level. The point I was making was that this is in the road race forum section and talking about the race specifically at Nelson.

An intermediate rider that runs track days isn't ready to race. Sorry... Well, let me correct. Not on a 600 or liter bike. Maybe a smaller and somewhat less dense class they could. But, the idea is that the times an intermediate rider would be at would make it somewhat dangerous and they should really consider more seat time at track days to get better with not only their riding, but with traffic management. There hasn't been a single I rider I have seen that manages traffic well enough.

I also think Advanced riders aren't ready until they can run a consistent and comfortable pace.

That's all. If you are an I guy, don't get offended. Again, everyone starts somewhere. I just believe that you aren't going to get better if you are getting blitzed out there. I think you will improve more by riding more track days and working on key elements.

[Moto-Brian]

I think Brian was confusing someone else with me on the cost differences.

In any case, I, as a mid pack intermediate rider want to progress enough this year to make it into the advanced group (as I said in another post somewhere). Would going to a race tire now really benefit me as it's likely that I'm not even close to pushing the limits of say a set of Q2's or Pures?

This is what I'm struggling with at the moment. I fully understand what Brian is saying but I can also agree with some of what Chris is saying as well. I know I'm not pushing myself personally enough yet to make me go above the potential of the tires, even if I do make it into the A group. Having seen Brandon, Craig, Jinu, Nick, etc. all run on street/race tires and put up respectable times I don't see how shelling out for full race shoes will make me a faster rider, right now. Those guys have been pushing the limits of a lesser tire and obviously can take full advantage of moving to a true race tire.

This is my quandary and I'm just trying to do what makes sense to get me into that A group this season.

Dude, you are totally fine. My point was directed at guys racing and running street bikes. If they are good enough to race and running a consitent pace and suitable to be out there, race tires WILL make things easier to do in those conditions.

I have always stated that street tires like the Q2 are amazing and well suited for I and N levels. Even A groups at times. I think I ran a 1:35 on Q2s at Mid-Ohio the time we had a lap timer on a bike from a KTM employee? They can do what you need them to do. But, I can certainly go a lot faster than that on race compounds. I'd have to look at my times in 2010 at Mid-Ohio when I raced a bone stock RC8R and won the MTT class. We used Michelin Power Ones front and rear. That's honest to God the only thing we added. I didn't even have clip-ons. My bad - we had a 520 kit for gearing and rearsets...

And, that 2010 RC8R is lower HP and not as good as the 2011/12 R...

Point I am saying is that if you are racing, race tires will assist you more than street tires. If anything, the effort to go even the same pace is enough to allow a rider to focus on important things like feedback and feel than working around the tires...

[Moto-Brian]

I might have been turning more like 1:22's, because Steve and Nathan(?) came up to me on the grid and reminded me, "remember: DON'T CRASH." But that would mean the guy would have been going even SLOWER.

Otherwise, yes, your understanding is exactly what I meant to convey. Myself, and two other guys in my race school (one on an SV650), could have lapped one of the other school riders on our cool-down lap. He was on a 600RR that was newer than mine (05/06 era). If we'd continued at our 'race' pace, we would have caught him around turn 4. Even at a cool-down pace, we had to back off to avoid passing him on the back straight. We were waving to corner workers, and he was still 'racing' a few hundred feet ahead of us.

I don't imagine he was breaking 1:40. If memory serves, MotoSeries publishes a 1:30 max lap, or they can pull you from the grid. WERA has a discretionary rule that allows them to do the same, but I have never seen or heard of it being done. Maybe back in the 90's, when the grids were bigger, but lately there's only 10-15 riders to lap any backmarkers.

And to get back on topic with our tire discussion, I don't fully agree that the times Craig posted are the 'limits' of street tires (not that he said they were), but I completely agree that better tires can lead to more confidence, and THAT certainly facilitates improvement.

If you're struggling mentally, then better tires might be worth the extra cash.

If you were lapping a guy in 4 laps running :22s, that means he was running something like you mentioned - over :40 per lap. THAT'S UNACCEPTABLE! Trust me, the fact of being 30-31 plus seconds slower a lap for a good number of guys presents a serious danger issue. I know Todd would pull a guy. The closing speeds and the fact if running that slow, the rider most likely will have jitters and be somewhat sketchy out there. If two guys split him like wet, rotted wood, he will most likely get spooked and change his line. That isn't good...

1:40, 1:30 are really Intermediate times at Nelson. Really, unless you can get within 20 seconds of the fast guys, you will be lapped more than once. In a 10 lap race at 30 seconds a lap slower, they would see us 3 times. That's not any fun for them but also dangerous for th others... I don't accept that. I have also seen riders pulled or black flagged.

As for the tire comments, you are seeing the light, my friend...

[tyler524]

If you were lapping a guy in 4 laps running :22s, that means he was running something like you mentioned - over :40 per lap. THAT'S UNACCEPTABLE! Trust me, the fact of being 30-31 plus seconds slower a lap for a good number of guys presents a serious danger issue. I know Todd would pull a guy. The closing speeds and the fact if running that slow, the rider most likely will have jitters and be somewhat sketchy out there. If two guys split him like wet, rotted wood, he will most likely get spooked and change his line. That isn't good...

1:40, 1:30 are really Intermediate times at Nelson. Really, unless you can get within 20 seconds of the fast guys, you will be lapped more than once. In a 10 lap race at 30 seconds a lap slower, they would see us 3 times. That's not any fun for them but also dangerous for th others... I don't accept that. I have also seen riders pulled or black flagged.

As for the tire comments, you are seeing the light, my friend...

In your mind, what kind of times should one be running to start racing?

[Moto-Brian]

In your mind, what kind of times should one be running to start racing?

Well, way faster than Craig and he others. They really clog shit up.

I'd say if you can pull sub :30 at Nelson, do it. It's different for every track due to line of site, length of the track etc.

If a 1:40 at Nelson, you're not going to be racing anyone and will struggle with the fact you will get passed no less than 3 times every race.

Look, I've been lapped by everyone from a top WERA National guy to Heroes I admire in AMA. It's part of it all at every level.

But, if I were lapped 3 times in a pro level race, I'd be black flagged. That is a saftey issue solely. The fast guys are just like any other group. There is a battle within that group. 3 guys blitzing 30 seconds faster in a group can lead to serious issues for everyone.

It's. I different if a novice rider enters an advanced group for a track day. It's not safe. Everyone starts somewhere. I did, you did, even Ben Spies did. But, going out in a class where you are well below the pace is just adding more danger to an already dangerous sport.

[r1crusher]

This could explain why Craig staffs for Todd. He is slow as fuck in races but always looks like the hero out there in front of a bunch of novice riders.

[blue03636]

Maybe that pass on Brian session 1 saturday should be extra close.

Motoseries rules state under a 1:30 at nelsons or 120% of current lap times for other tracks. 120% might be a bit much as that would be 1:15's at beaver which could get sketchy. That being said I don't have a problem as long as you fall within what the rules state and you are consistant so others can get passed.