i-Zapp Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 My son and I are heading there next monday. He's only 16 so they sent me a "minor release and waiver". Six pages, but i glanced over it figuring it's pretty run of the mill stuff. But then some things caught my attention that got me pretty wound up.First off, we've been involved in motorsports for years (10 for my son) and we're no stranger to danger, or injury, and accept those risks as our OWN responsibility. I've never had a problem signing a waiver. The issue i've got with MidOhio's release is that it specifically includes rescue and medical personnel as a "Releasee", or individuals absolved from liability or recourse. THEN, (this is the part that chaps my ass) they go on to say that I need to release them from "negligent rescue operations and/or procedures" and that "INJURIES RECEIVED MAY BE COMPOUNDED OR INCREASED BY NEGLIGENT RESCUE OPERATIONS OR PROCEDURES OF THE RELEASEES".I have a real problem with that word. I realize that the likelihood that their safety people are qualified is reasonably high, but it seems to give license to making mistakes. Is this typical wording? Should i be concerned? Just sign and notarize it and hope nothing bad happens? And if some 1st year medical student fucks something serious up, oh well??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykill Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) Well MidgetTodd is a negligent safety personnel for Mid Ohio. Maybe he could shine some light on the issue for you. Edited August 9, 2012 by Mykill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Regardless of your signing a release or not... that doesn't 100% indemnify MidOhio from being negligent or reckless.A release is a nice document to show in court saying "But he signed the waiver" -- that's about it. All it shows was that you've been instructed and made aware of the danger, but doesn't absolve MidOhio from negligence.In reality, it's not possible to completely absolve yourself (or MidOhio in this case) from litigation via a waiver if the other party has a legitimate legal ground to bring suit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 That is not out of the norm in a lawsuit happy world. As I am not their lawyer I cannot tell you the specific reason for that but what I will tell you is this..... people like to sue, people like to armchair quarter back everybody else's move. Sometimes heat of the moment decisions need made and my crew and myself don't have the luxury of time to discuss a plan or go locate a different extraction tool ect... Accidents are not planned and are never the same and a child cannot communicate with me in a traumatic situation as an adult could nor can they voice to me their injuries accurately like an adult may so in the event they are trapped, pinned in, whatever and I have to make a split second decision based on what I can readily see to save their life I'm going to do what I feel needs done. There have been cases where this has happened and as a result an injury was compounded or an additional injury was caused... but he's ALIVE. So basically its there to try and stop you from trying to sue because I pulled juniors arm out of socket in the process of keeping him from burning to death or I fracture a couple ribs because I gave the best CPR I could to bring him back from a trauma arrest. If you would like to nit pick it and not sign, that is fine and we won't even notice you're not there. If you choose to sign it however...... I will do everything I possibly can to make sure you hug your son another Christmas morning, just don't sue me for making sure he sees another birthday. Don't wanna sound like a dick but yes I've been to court once for an ungrateful bastard that stood and did not think we did enough. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Zapp Posted August 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 i have complete respect and appreciation for the medical profession. my wife is a nurse, and i'll be the first to admit they arent paid enough for the work they do.my issue is with the word 'negligence' which to me has the very negative connotation of ignorance. i realize that in the frenzy of an accident, decisions need to made quickly and they are not always the right ones. i get that. i just dont want to think that some harm come by letting 'negligent' people perform the most important job on the track.i suppose the legal definition of the word is different, and it just means doing a wrong to cause harm. i guess thats ok given the context described above. it's just crazy how much much effort goes into avoiding accountability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Not avoiding accountability ... avoiding frivolous lawsuits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Good luck disclaiming negligence. They gonna try disclaiming homicide next?Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anden Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 That is not out of the norm in a lawsuit happy world. As I am not their lawyer I cannot tell you the specific reason for that but what I will tell you is this..... people like to sue, people like to armchair quarter back everybody else's move. Sometimes heat of the moment decisions need made and my crew and myself don't have the luxury of time to discuss a plan or go locate a different extraction tool ect... Accidents are not planned and are never the same and a child cannot communicate with me in a traumatic situation as an adult could nor can they voice to me their injuries accurately like an adult may so in the event they are trapped, pinned in, whatever and I have to make a split second decision based on what I can readily see to save their life I'm going to do what I feel needs done. There have been cases where this has happened and as a result an injury was compounded or an additional injury was caused... but he's ALIVE. So basically its there to try and stop you from trying to sue because I pulled juniors arm out of socket in the process of keeping him from burning to death or I fracture a couple ribs because I gave the best CPR I could to bring him back from a trauma arrest. If you would like to nit pick it and not sign, that is fine and we won't even notice you're not there. If you choose to sign it however...... I will do everything I possibly can to make sure you hug your son another Christmas morning, just don't sue me for making sure he sees another birthday. Don't wanna sound like a dick but yes I've been to court once for an ungrateful bastard that stood and did not think we did enough.Best answer ever. +rep to you sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 The waiver should not be trying to disclaim negligence - it doesn't work against a determined enough plaintiff.The waiver is an Acceptance Of Risk (AOR) and it trying to achieve two things... 1) Getting you to agree that you won't sue them for these specific things that might happen there... and 2) providing proof that you were notified of the specific nature of the risks. Thing is, court, if you push it, will tend to agree that negligence is the exact reason you ARE being sued. That's liek saying; "You can't arrest me for DUI, I'm DRUNK!"If you could disclaim negligence then the EMTs could just wrap a chain around your leg and drag out out of the car with a pickup truck, snapping every bone on the way out, and then you're stiffed.The waiver should say; "Racing is an extremely dangerous sport that includes the risk of injury or death. The track provides emergency medical staff who will act in good faith and to the best of their ability to rescue and treat you if the need arises, however you accept that you may not be in a position to consent to, choose or decline any specific rescue techniques employed. You are still at extreme risk of injury or death despite the best efforts of the Emergency Rescue personnel. Some rescue methods require split-second decisions to be made that could increase some injuries if those actions are required to save your life. This includes, but is not limited to, rib injures during CPR, injuries associated with extrication from a vehicle, or even inability to follow spine support protocols in dire cases such as extrication form a burning vehicle."Don't disclaim negligence - these things are not negligence. Explain why it it is not negligence.My brother is a Paramedic in the UK. I know that EMT/EMS/Paramedics do their best and I don't doubt for a second that they often have to make tough decisions in dealing with dynamic situations. I think characterizing that decision-making process as negligence is a disservice to the EMT/EMS crews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Why are we splitting hairs over this. He asked what it ment and he got an answer. Its not my waiver. Nobody is arguing if it will hold in court or anything else. He asked what it ment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 I'm saying the waiver is stupid, easily challenged AND makes EMTs sound like a bunch of untrained gorillas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_some_dude Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Maybe I am reading it wrong, but it sounds to me like they are stating they are not responsible for any rescue operation, for example, a dispatched paramedic, or life flight... not necessarily their own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 I'm saying the waiver is stupid, easily challenged AND makes EMTs sound like a bunch of untrained gorillas.What about untrained midgets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Maybe I am reading it wrong, but it sounds to me like they are stating they are not responsible for any rescue operation, for example, a dispatched paramedic, or life flight... not necessarily their own?No medical at MidOhio is their "own". MidOhio has no directly employed medical staff. We are paid thru contract. Air is paid thru MedFlight, Ground is paid thru We Care Inc "dba Critical Life", Dr and RN for high profile events are paid cash on a 1099. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 What about untrained midgets?Depends. Do you and 30 midget friends all jump of the ambulance like a clown car?Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 If you have truly been around racing for such a long time, the waiver is typical and pretty standard issue. There isn't a track out there that has anything different. The wording may come across as different, but at the end of the day, all you are saying is that you are participating in a dangerous activity and should your child or "minor" get hurt and as Todd VERY WELL PUT, if he cracks three ribs to keep him breathing, they aren't liable.In other words, racing is dangerous. People die. This ain't table tennis so, every time he suits up, you suit up, friends suit up... You all risk coming back in a bag. The waivers don't mean shit, either to be honest... You get killed and there is a reason why a particular wall was exposed or something happened where they can easily be found liable? That waiver isn't worth the ink used to print it.Carry on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shittygsxr Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 I'm saying the waiver is stupid, easily challenged AND makes EMTs sound like a bunch of untrained gorillas.To become a licensed EMT in Ohio, you must complete a formal training program and pass a 2-part certification examination. The training program typically includes around 130 hours of training, with 120 being classroom and ten hours being clinical experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 And eat massive amounts of spaghetti. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 And eat massive amounts of spaghetti.I challenge you at all aspects of spaghetti consumption. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Don't write a check with your e-words that your facehole can't cash, brutha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Don't write a check with your e-words that your facehole can't cash, brutha.Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habi Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 While you all are arguing over the waiver.... Todd, are you working Mid-O Monday? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 No, I don't think I work there again till the NASA race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVTPilot Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 What about untrained midgets?Would this imply that there is certified midget training someplace?! That would be sooooo much better than trained monkeys, as most midgets (that I am aware of) won't fling their shit at you. Fuck having a trained midget would be awesome!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Fuck having a trained midget would be awesome!!I am for hire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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