How/ Who set up your trust?

[crb]

Is the attorney route really necessary if only doing it for NFA items?

[Gump]

Charlie Ringer in Canton Ohio did mine. Great guy and a gun owner. Specializes in estate planning. Talks to you like a person not a know it all lawyer who doesn't care if you understand it or not.

Although my trust was not about guns what types of weapons do you need a trust to transfer? Cans and autos?

[kiggy74]

Is the attorney route really necessary if only doing it for NFA items?

Attorneys will say yes, although I know people that have gone the quicken our legal zoom routes too. This was a relatively cheap option for a consult with an actual attorney. For me it wasn't worth the risk of 10 years in club fed so an attorney was a no brainer. I also called a local attorney in Columbus named Derek Debrosse. He's the GC for Ohioans for Concealed Carry. His rate for an NFA trust was $700. Seemed like a nice guy, but i had to pass.

[crb]

Cans and autos?

Yep

Canton isn't too far of a drive. The lawyer that did our will and such is retiring, and we have to change it later this year with the new arrival.

[flounder]

Attorneys will say yes, although I know people that have gone the quicken our legal zoom routes too. This was a relatively cheap option for a consult with an actual attorney. For me it wasn't worth the risk of 10 years in club fed so an attorney was a no brainer. I also called a local attorney in Columbus named Derek Debrosse. He's the GC for Ohioans for Concealed Carry. His rate for an NFA trust was $700. Seemed like a nice guy, but i had to pass.

I think you may be confused. Why do you think you would get time when you submit a trust, ATF reviews it, and approves your can. You realize they are reviewing trust right?

So they reviewed it, approved your can, where is the issue?

[kiggy74]

I think you may be confused. Why do you think you would get time when you submit a trust, ATF reviews it, and approves your can. You realize they are reviewing trust right?

So they reviewed it, approved your can, where is the issue?

I understand your point, but there's still vulnerabilities with an improperly written document. The least of which of these are additional unecessary delays in waiting for your tax stamps.

Also, any decent lawyer that creates your trust will also provide clear procedures as to how to ammend your trust to add/remove people, items, etc. As people in your life and the items you own change your trust may need maintenance. The ATF isn't the place to go for legal advice.

[flounder]

I understand your point, but there's still vulnerabilities with an improperly written document. The least of which of these are additional unecessary delays in waiting for your tax stamps.

Also, any decent lawyer that creates your trust will also provide clear procedures as to how to ammend your trust to add/remove people, items, etc. As people in your life and the items you own change your trust may need maintenance. The ATF isn't the place to go for legal advice.

Just a few things.

1. Youre relying on 1 single person to write your trust

2. Quicken verbiage is reviewed by multiple levels of people prior to going live in software. Actually by someone board certified for every state so we will say 50 people min or multiple people with multiple with certifications across the US.

3. Hundreds if not thousands of people use Quicken as their NFA trust with zero issues. Try and find cases of ATF not approving a quicken trust. Ive never heard of it but if you can find it, you would most likely find just as many for regular legal counsel as well.

4. Adding / removing people are items is a no brainer and does not require an attorney, does not require re-submission to ATF (At least yet). etc.

Im not going to the ATF for legal advice and neither are you but... they are the ones who say whether my trust is valid or not, its not your lawyer and its not Quicken so if they approve it. Approved is approved. If a lawyer makes you feel better about it, than so be it. Just realize the points you are making are moot and unsubstantiated.

This is nothing personal nor is it intended to be but just consider what youre saying before providing guidance to interested people. I strongly suggest everyone do their own research and do whatever route you feel most comfortable with.

Edited March 12, 2013 by flounder

[walther_gsp]

To be fair, the review done by the ATF is a basic legal criteria review, not a full legal review. This means they make sure that the grantor, trustee and beneficiary aren't all the same person, it's signed/notorized and that the Schedule A has actual property listed.

That said, I just looked over an NFA trust written by a lawyer that specializes in these and I told the guy to ask for some major clarification or ask for his money back. All his theory was good, but the way he wrote it and put it into practice made me cringe. Example, stated the trust was funded by $1000, but didn't list that asset in the Schedule A. The schedule A was basically an assignment of property form, which is usually used to document putting non-titled items into trust, which isn't needed with NFA due to the tax stamp (aka title). Then he told my friend to list the Suppressor in the Schedule A. Folks, you can't do this until the transfer is complete. The trust doesn't legally own it until then.

These guys will go on and on about how you need special language in these trusts for NFA items and only they can give them to you. By and large that is crap. The theory is that a trustee has a fiduciary duty to the trust and by using an item you are decreasing its value and thus not fulfilling your duties. OK, so add a line that says trustees can use trust property without regard for depreciation and you are set. If I recall, the ORC basically states allows for that in the law, without regard to the trustee powers listed in the trust itself.

So all that said, both flounder and kiggy are wrong, and both flounder and kiggy are right.

[flounder]

To be fair, the review done by the ATF is a basic legal criteria review, not a full legal review. This means they make sure that the grantor, trustee and beneficiary aren't all the same person, it's signed/notorized and that the Schedule A has actual property listed.

That said, I just looked over an NFA trust written by a lawyer that specializes in these and I told the guy to ask for some major clarification or ask for his money back. All his theory was good, but the way he wrote it and put it into practice made me cringe. Example, stated the trust was funded by $1000, but didn't list that asset in the Schedule A. The schedule A was basically an assignment of property form, which is usually used to document putting non-titled items into trust, which isn't needed with NFA due to the tax stamp (aka title). Then he told my friend to list the Suppressor in the Schedule A. Folks, you can't do this until the transfer is complete. The trust doesn't legally own it until then.

These guys will go on and on about how you need special language in these trusts for NFA items and only they can give them to you. By and large that is crap. The theory is that a trustee has a fiduciary duty to the trust and by using an item you are decreasing its value and thus not fulfilling your duties. OK, so add a line that says trustees can use trust property without regard for depreciation and you are set. If I recall, the ORC basically states allows for that in the law, without regard to the trustee powers listed in the trust itself.

So all that said, both flounder and kiggy are wrong, and both flounder and kiggy are right.

Maybe but youre still a [)i(k. mmmkkaayy pumpkin.

[Radio Flyer]

I spoke on the phone with an attorney today. He honestly told me, my Quicken trust is more than fine and he has heard of hundreds of people using them without issue. I plan on using him to create another trust down the road when my life gets more complicated or I decide I'm doing multiple sbr builds. He quoted me for 250. He was very nice and informative as well as an active shooter. He said he wants to help people out interested in a sport he loves and with the prices he charges compared to others he will be my go to reference if someone feels the need to get a "NFA Trust".

I heard of one instance a quicken trust was deemed invalid after it had been initially cleared. All that was asked of from the owner was for a new trust to be written up promptly for the item to be placed in. They didn't throw him in jail or hit him to death with penalties or take him to court to ruin his life, they just asked him to fix the issue. This does not mean all Quicken trusts are invalid.

All in all, I feel safe using Quicken and have a back up plan if my trust is deemed to be invalid down the road. I'll only have one item to transfer so I'll gamble saving 250 on a "NFA Trust" now and eat up the 200 to transfer it over to one if I absolutely have to.

[swingset]

Quicken user here. No problems.

[kiggy74]

Just a few things.

1. Youre relying on 1 single person to write your trust

2. Quicken verbiage is reviewed by multiple levels of people prior to going live in software. Actually by someone board certified for every state so we will say 50 people min or multiple people with multiple with certifications across the US.

3. Hundreds if not thousands of people use Quicken as their NFA trust with zero issues. Try and find cases of ATF not approving a quicken trust. Ive never heard of it but if you can find it, you would most likely find just as many for regular legal counsel as well.

4. Adding / removing people are items is a no brainer and does not require an attorney, does not require re-submission to ATF (At least yet). etc.

Im not going to the ATF for legal advice and neither are you but... they are the ones who say whether my trust is valid or not, its not your lawyer and its not Quicken so if they approve it. Approved is approved. If a lawyer makes you feel better about it, than so be it. Just realize the points you are making are moot and unsubstantiated.

This is nothing personal nor is it intended to be but just consider what youre saying before providing guidance to interested people. I strongly suggest everyone do their own research and do whatever route you feel most comfortable with.

1. I'm depending on a law firm, who has setup hundreds of non-revocable living trusts, wills, etc and has represented them personally in criminal and probabte courts. Not to mention, if I need help with it later on I have a person I can call and ask a question.

2. I'm sure you could assume that Quicken's doc have been thoroughly vetted. I prefer to not assume and would rather have a person that I can deal with.

3. You might be right, I have no information other than my own personal preference to suggest one option is better than the other, nor have I suggested such. What I provided was an accurate description of my own personal opinion and experience with the matter, which while it may differs from yours is no less correct than yours.

4. To protect the people that might assume ownership of the trust and these items should I die, there is nothing regarding a trust that is a no-brainer. Should something happen to me I'd prefer to leave my wife a better option than calling the 800 number for Quicken customer service.

[Radio Flyer]

4. To protect the people that might assume ownership of the trust and these items should I die, there is nothing regarding a trust that is a no-brainer. Should something happen to me I'd prefer to leave my wife a better option than calling the 800 number for Quicken customer service.

This is the reason I'll most likely get someone to set one up for me at some point in time.

[kiggy74]

My trust is mentioned in my will, which was also set up by the same attorney.

[crb]

My trust is mentioned in my will, which was also set up by the same attorney.

Good point.

[MidgetTodd]

I made a will, there's going to be several pissed off people lol