Why you cannot prove there is/isn't God

[TheHaze]

(1) AT MOST only 1 sect of 1 religion is right, and ALL OTHERS are wrong. This is due to the fact that if any two religions did not have a difference then they would be the same religion. SO at MOST, only one group of one denomination has it right (e.g., some sect of baptists or something).

 

(2) The "3-O" God (i.e., Omnipotent, Omnicient, Omnibenevolent) must know what you are about to do 5 minutes from now. However, 5 minutes from now, if you do anything other than what God knew you were going to do 5 minutes prior, then you caused God to have a false belief which an Omnicient being CANNOT have by definition. The problem is that in order to have moral responsibility, one must believe in TOTAL free will, otherwise no one is morally accountable (i.e., if you could not do anything other than kill someone, then you cannot be held responsible for the action). To have free will means that at any moment in time, you can do as you please but COULD have done something else. If you are always doing as God "foresaw" then he is the one in cotrol and you do not have free will and thus have no control over any of your actions and therefore are not responsible for them.

 

 

Those are just 2 of the most basic reasons why I do not believe in any typical "3-O" God.

Firstly, no one has "expertise" in this, as the reason in the thread's title states.

 

1. Every religion that I have encountered or studied seem drastically similar in form but not in words. Meaning the world only has 1 religion but it has been broken up to appeal to the masses.

 

2. You're under the impression that the God you speak of is the one percieved by most. Not all look at God the same. The way you're looking at It is the reason you oppose It: assumption.

 

There's no proof that everything in the Bible is correct and incorrect. Most likely there is some very innaccurate literature written in it but who are we to speak its trueness?

[D.Wiggs]

David. If you don't mind me asking, how is this your field of expertiese? Degree? Diploma?

 

Degree (undergrad) and in the process of finishing up my Masters in Philosophy of Religion. May or may not do my PhD as well.

[Balian]

Fair enough.

[TheHaze]

Because fear is the ULTIMATE motivator.

I'm under the impression that it's your belief that fear is the motivator in our times therefore hell must have been the ultimate doom whenever, if ever, God was created. When mankind began, we don't know what they feared.

[D.Wiggs]

Firstly, no one has "expertise" in this, as the reason in the thread's title states.

 

1. Every religion that I have encountered or studied seem drastically similar in form but not in words. Meaning the world only has 1 religion but it has been broken up to appeal to the masses.

 

2. You're under the impression that the God you speak of is the one percieved by most. Not all look at God the same. The way you're looking at It is the reason you oppose It: assumption.

 

There's no proof that everything in the Bible is correct and incorrect. Most likely there is some very innaccurate literature written in it but who are we to speak its trueness?

 

(1) Every religion is DIFFERENT, therefore not similar. The interpretation argument fails miserably when you actually break it down.

 

(2) Who is perceiving God? If you do not have at LEAST the "3-O" God he CERTAINLY is not worthy of worship!

 

NOTHING can be both CORRECT AND INCORRECT; it's a logical contradiction. Who are we to speak to its trueness??? That is like saying who are we to say that Gravity is most likely real for we are only humans! That is lunacy!

 

This is why the debate is so hard. Most have not read a lot of the literature

on the subject and therefore think they have some new reason that refutes what I am saying. Trust me, there isn't. The "Evidential Problem of Evil" has not (and for all intensive purposes CANNOT) be solved by any Theist.

 

Trust me, you do not want to go down these roads.

[Balian]

I'm under the impression that it's your belief that fear is the motivator in our times therefore hell must have been the ultimate doom whenever, if ever, God was created. When mankind began, we don't know what they feared.

 

No we don't but if you have read the bible, it is that we didn't get the 10 commandments until sometime after humans were created. So that gave them their sense of fear. Before that, I am going to assume that men feared nothing. To show this, look at Adam and Eve. Adam was told to not eat the apple and the snake convinced him to do it. He didn't fear god like people do now. If he did, then he would have not eaten the apple.

[D.Wiggs]

I'm under the impression that it's your belief that fear is the motivator in our times therefore hell must have been the ultimate doom whenever, if ever, God was created. When mankind began, we don't know what they feared.

 

I never said anything about hell. I said that if you instill fear in people, they will do as you please. We even do it to ourselves. WHy do we excercise? Fear of being fat or unattractive, or DYING at an early age, etc. We do it all of the time, that was my point.

[D.Wiggs]

No we don't but if you have read the bible, it is that we didn't get the 10 commandments until sometime after humans were created. So that gave them their sense of fear. Before that, I am going to assume that men feared nothing. To show this, look at Adam and Eve. Adam was told to not eat the apple and the snake convinced him to do it. He didn't fear god like people do now. If he did, then he would have not eaten the apple.

 

 

And don't forget the two totally incompatible stories about Adam and Eve in Genesis 1 and 2. In 1, Adam and Eve are in the Garden of Eden. In 2, Adam is created first an dthen becomes lonely, so God makes Eve out of Adam's rib. If you take the Bible as anything other than a shaky account of historical events and mostly fiction, you are really stretching things.

 

The most likely purpose of the Bible was to serve as a story about Morals (which is a whole other can of worms since morals DO NOT EXIST) and a kind of demonstration of the ones to have and not to have.

[TheHaze]

(1) Every religion is DIFFERENT, therefore not similar. The interpretation argument fails miserably when you actually break it down.

 

(2) Who is perceiving God? If you do not have at LEAST the "3-O" God he CERTAINLY is not worthy of worship!

 

NOTHING can be both CORRECT AND INCORRECT; it's a logical contradiction. Who are we to speak to its trueness??? That is like saying who are we to say that Gravity is most likely real for we are only humans! That is lunacy!

 

This is why the debate is so hard. Most have not read a lot of the literature

on the subject and therefore think they have some new reason that refutes what I am saying. Trust me, there isn't. The "Evidential Problem of Evil" has not (and for all intensive purposes CANNOT) be solved by any Theist.

 

Trust me, you do not want to go down these roads.

 

1. Every religion is similar in that there is a faith that exists. There is something believed in. More times then not, it's a higher being. Now, in my mind I've come to the conclusion that that means there are similarities. I went out on a limb on that one.

 

2. So now you're saying what is and what is not worthy of worship. God can be such a simple thing. Mother nature could be God in which she angers with the human race and punishes. What I'm saying is it seems you have your own perception what God is, which somewhat contradicts the fact you're trying to disprove.

 

3. You're correct: nothing can be both correct and incorrect, which is why I said it was neither..

[D.Wiggs]

1. Every religion is similar in that there is a faith that exists. There is something believed in. More times then not, it's a higher being. Now, in my mind I've come to the conclusion that that means there are similarities. I went out on a limb on that one.

 

2. So now you're saying what is and what is not worthy of worship. God can be such a simple thing. Mother nature could be God in which she angers with the human race and punishes. What I'm saying is it seems you have your own perception what God is, which somewhat contradicts the fact you're trying to disprove.

 

3. You're correct: nothing can be both correct and incorrect, which is why I said it was neither..

 

 

If God is not the "3-O" God, why would we worship him? Why would you worship someone who is just Powerful, or Just Good, or Just Knowlegable. You need all of those things and to the highest degree (i.e., Omnipotent, Omnicient, and Omnibenevolent) otherwise he should not be worshipped. God is not a PERSON, it is a JOB TITLE, like Janitor. It is ANYONE OR THING that happens to meet the 3-O criteria. People make this mistake. To Christians, God's name is Yahwe (sp?). You can have a CREATOR, or a ALL-Powerful being, or all-knowing, but if he/she/it is NOT ALL 3, then they are NOT God BY DEFINITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TheHaze]

And don't forget the two totally incompatible stories about Adam and Eve in Genesis 1 and 2. In 1, Adam and Eve are in the Garden of Eden. In 2, Adam is created first an dthen becomes lonely, so God makes Eve out of Adam's rib. If you take the Bible as anything other than a shaky account of historical events and mostly fiction, you are really stretching things.

 

The most likely purpose of the Bible was to serve as a story about Morals (which is a whole other can of worms since morals DO NOT EXIST) and a kind of demonstration of the ones to have and not to have.

Of course there are mistakes and unreliability in the Bible, it was written by man. That in no means it wasn't based off of something true.

 

You're right, natural morality doesn't exist. We're born blanketed-pig style and no nothing and are taught what we know and believe, just as you have been. Is that a bad thing? Morals were created so that mass numbers can live together in harmony.

[TheHaze]

If God is not the "3-O" God, why would we worship him? Why would you worship someone who is just Powerful, or Just Good, or Just Knowlegable. You need all of those things and to the highest degree (i.e., Omnipotent, Omnicient, and Omnibenevolent) otherwise he should not be worshipped. God is not a PERSON, it is a JOB TITLE, like Janitor. It is ANYONE OR THING that happens to meet the 3-O criteria. People make this mistake. To Christians, God's name is Yahwe (sp?). You can have a CREATOR, or a ALL-Powerful being, or all-knowing, but if he/she/it is NOT ALL 3, then they are NOT God BY DEFINITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But why are you under the impression that worship is neccesary? Why can't existance be enough and just left at that? You must know who Martin Luther was... It seems to me that you were led to your impressions and understandings by a set of professors set on their own beliefs, which is fine because that's how I was taught, but I don't claim to be the holder of all truth.

[D.Wiggs]

Of course there are mistakes and unreliability in the Bible, it was written by man. That in no means it wasn't based off of something true.

 

You're right, natural morality doesn't exist. We're born blanketed-pig style and no nothing and are taught what we know and believe, just as you have been. Is that a bad thing? Morals were created so that mass numbers can live together in harmony.

 

 

Here is the thing that people seem to forget. To TRULY be a Christian for example, one must accept the Bible as the WORD OF GOD and live by it verbatum. As the years have gone by, and especially in today's society we make changes and make excuses for the Bible (e.g., we do not think it is right to own slaves or kill our children for being disobedient like the Bible tells us); however, that is not being a Christian for one is arbitrarily substituting one's own judgment for that of "God's" supposedly.

 

One might as well call it "Johnsianity" or "Steveianity". The second you choose not to follow the Bible exactly, you are no longer a REAL Christian and therefore should not consider yourself one. The Bible is an ALL or NOTHING proposition for a Christian; otherwise you are believing is a HUMAN'S interpritation of it (e.g., Lutheranism etc.).

[D.Wiggs]

But why are you under the impression that worship is neccesary? Why can't existance be enough and just left at that? You must know who Martin Luther was... It seems to me that you were led to your impressions and understandings by a set of professors set on their own beliefs, which is fine because that's how I was taught, but I don't claim to be the holder of all truth.

 

Religion is not religion without worship. That is just it. I was taught by professors who give you ALL of the information and let you decide on your own as opposed to forcing you into a set of beliefs like Christianity does whilst clouding the truth in shame and damnation. I never said I was the holder of all truth; quite the contrary. WHat I said is that my opinion is based on good reason and not poor anecdotal evidence.

[TheHaze]

Here is the thing that people seem to forget. To TRULY be a Christian for example, one must accept the Bible as the WORD OF GOD and live by it verbatum. As the years have gone by, and especially in today's society we make changes and make excuses for the Bible (e.g., we do not think it is right to own slaves or kill our children for being disobedient like the Bible tells us); however, that is not being a Christian for one is arbitrarily substituting one's own judgment for that of "God's" supposedly.

 

One might as well call it "Johnsianity" or "Steveianity". The second you choose not to follow the Bible exactly, you are no longer a REAL Christian and therefore should not consider yourself one. The Bible is an ALL or NOTHING proposition for a Christian; otherwise you are believing is a HUMAN'S interpritation of it (e.g., Lutheranism etc.).

 

This is why I am where I'm at: I don't believe there is or isn't. As a human, I just exist. I don't regret or dispute my existance or other's existance. The only documentation we have of God's existance is written by man. Christianity and its rules were also written by man. From my point of view, God could have been created by man as that's the only "proof" there is. But what gets me is how powerful it has been to last so long and to only get stronger. Out of curiosity to your background DWiggs, were you brought up in a religious family?

[D.Wiggs]

This is why I am where I'm at: I don't believe there is or isn't. As a human, I just exist. I don't regret or dispute my existance or other's existance. The only documentation we have of God's existance is written by man. Christianity and its rules were also written by man. From my point of view, God could have been created by man as that's the only "proof" there is. But what gets me is how powerful it has been to last so long and to only get stronger. Out of curiosity to your background DWiggs, were you brought up in a religious family?

 

It has been so powerful because it was forced on people to believe and taught at such a young age to others who did not know otherwise and were punished for questioning.

 

My mother is Jewish, my father is Presbyterian (sp?) and I was given the choice of choosing my religion. Neither of my parents were or are religious (my Dad basically not at all (hasn't been to church in probably 50 or 60 years) and my mom is a reform Jew and only went twice or 3 times a year)). I was exposed to both and chose to be Jewish and had a Bar mitzvah. I was always an atheist Jew since Judaism is a Philosophy first and religion second, and now, whilst still considered Jewish, a full fledged atheist.

[D.Wiggs]

All this discussion has made me hungry. I tried praying to God for food to appear but I keep getting the bastard's voice mail so I must go make it myself!

 

(so people know that was a JOKE!)

 

I am off to eat!

[TheHaze]

All this discussion has made me hungry. I tried praying to God for food to appear but I keep getting the bastard's voice mail so I must go make it myself!

 

(so people know that was a JOKE!)

 

I am off to eat!

Right on, we shall discuss later. In the meantime I'm gonna go grill up some donkey steak...lol

[Cougar1647545494]

That was extremely well written and thought out. Honestly, probalby the intellectual thread on these forums ever.

 

Thanks for the read. That opened up my mind and gives me something a little more to think about every day.

[88lx5oh]

D. Wiggs i agree wiht you 100%

everything you have said in this thread i have thought about or said to someone else.. just not as well as you put it.

 

really to discuss belief in god is like a camaro guy tellin a mustang guy, camaros are better or vice vers. or why one band is better than another. its all personal opinion and it all depends on your background how oyu were brought up, how much you even think about it. your life from the time you were born till now has every affect on if you are a believer in god. if your parents were atheist and enstilled it in you then most likely you would be to, if your parents were christian and enstilled it in you then most likely you would be too.

 

it stems from your maker. but for how long. what started this.

 

myself i belive that god and faith was created from fear as d wiggs stated. fear is the ultimate way to controll a mass quantity of people.

 

take the news... every commercial for the 6 o clock news or whatever is something like this "coming up at 6 on 10tv news, unsafe grocerey stores.. what you should know about your local shopping place"

 

things of that nature scare people into watching tv to find out why, what, where.

i watch the news and alot of shit on there is retarded shit they say to try to scare you, get you more aware. its rediculous.

 

another way to look at it is terrorism. how many times did george bush come on tv and make speeches that scared the shit out of all these ignorant americans . about what we need to do because we could be underattack. he is still doing it years later. he used fear to keep him in office.

[Mensan]

They break a very basic tenant of science.

 

http://forumimages.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-eng101.gifTenet.

 

 

You have not defined "God" in your post. Scientifically you cannot prove or disprove anything without a definition of what "it" is. There are many differing opinions on "God", so you need to tell us what that is exactly.

 

You have also stated that light knows it's own destination, where in reality the light travels in all directions with no destination. The fact that it eventually hits something is arbitrary. It travels in a straight line, which we all know is the fastest way to get somewhere. That the line appears to move when it hits water is not a flaw with the ilght, but how it is viewed.

[Alex1647545498]

I believe in higher power or higher dimensional beings. Somewhere out of our "system".

 

Dimensional as in... Imagine:

 

If you were a 2 dimensional being on a piece of paper and that's all you know. You will not be able to see height. You would run around every day with your 2D friends with lines as walls around your house and such. But a 3D being will be able to look down and see right through your house, car, your world, and even your body. That 3D being will be able to make something appear as if by magic because all he/she would have to do is set something down. But you have no concept of this "down" so you believe that god just sent you a present. This god will be able to create new worlds for you, be able to teleport you to places by picking you "up" then droping you "down" elsewhere. This god will be able to do unimaginable things.

 

But we are not able to imagin those things that higher dimensional beings are able to do. We are limited by our own "system". It might be easier for people to think of the other posibilities if they were to think smaller... such as 2D.

[Science Abuse]

A 2d being could see 3d objects, it would just have no way of comprehending them. All would apear as 2D.

travels in a straight line, which we all know is the fastest way to get somewhere. That the line appears to move when it hits water is not a flaw with the ilght, but how it is viewed.

Not only water, but gravity als distorts light, as does air and other gasses.

 

Mowgli, you left out some one in you band of god fearing cohorts, Darwin.

 

 

I read you post, and those following it. Those following it contained a great many written words, but in the end realy said very little.

 

Faith is alot simpler then people try to make it out to be. On a theological level, its between you and your deity, that's it. Religion groups people, separates them, and often pits them against each other based on stupid little differences, and people often forget to point of faith.

 

It's also a fact that Faith is a neccesary staple in a humans mental and emotional diet. You need it. You dont need to have faith in a god, but you do need to have faith in something, otherwise you'll go mad, or even worse, you'll go Emo. Even in science, you are required to have faith. There is alot that is simply impossible to prove. String Theory, the new up and commer, is still more a philosophy then it is physics. No experiment exists to prove it, yet no experiment exists to disprove it. It, like God, is safe.

 

One might argue that the Strings are, in fact, god himself, or the means in which he works. "God is in the details", and you dont get more detailed then the building blocks of matter and existence squiring around in 11 dimensions.

 

 

Advice: Relax. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", espcialy when dealing with an all powerfull god. I'd also advise not going to church/temple/etc before you take the time to find out what, exactly god means to you. Without understanding yourself there's realy no way for you to feel the real benifits of faith.

And for the love of pete, live and let live. Shalom, habib, peace out and goodnight.

[Alex1647545498]

Yeah... would see them as a line or wall of some kind. But yeah... you get my drift.

[speedline]

well i definatly cant say this like d.wiggs but to me this is why i dont think there is. greek mythology speaks of gods but its a myth so why dont they call the bible a myth? greek mythology and the bible have alot in common from what i have read of both........ these are stories we know how stories get turned around and added on to ect. remember back in those days they had no technology and didnt realize that hell isnt underground. hell they thought the world was flat but we know better now. lava is what comes out of the earth so they had thought that was hell.. the heavens were above and hell was below........ the earth is round not flat. we as humans are able to explain alot of things that they couldnt back then. i could go about the jesus thing to but i'll wait. there are so many things that point me away from belief it just seems to be obvious. i think that anything is possible but i honestly feel no matter what we are all lucky to be here so enjoy it while your here god or no god only death will be the answer. you can believe all you want just dont push it on me and im happy.

 

i say it better than i write it. too much shit in my head.