What Toyota knows that GM doesn’t

[hpfiend]

#1 Do japanese companies have unions?

 

#2 Do japanese companies pay income taxes in the US?

 

#3 Are most employees at japanese companies full time with benefits?

 

#4 Let's not forget it was an American company that invented a car for the people and the assembly line.

 

#5 Z06/ZR1 & Ford GT... Japanese has what a 1994 toyota and an embarrasing GTR oh wait don't forget the monster NSX.

 

#6 How many employees current and retired on the pension plan do GM/Ford/Chrysler command compared to Japanese companies? Its a lot easier to not cut 0 out of 10 than 5 out of 5000

 

Don't count the americans out. They didn't have to produce cars that didn't break because they didn't have to until now. It was called planned obsolescence and it made them lots of money. How many years of profitability did it afford them... 20? 30? If you want to talk social programs thats fine but if you want to talk business strategy thats a different story.

 

Ferrari underestimated Ford and they got the GT40.

 

Thanks.

[kirks5oh]

just so long as they're still making vettes over the next year, i don't care what happens. my dad was a salaried metalurgical engineer at ford in brookpark ohio (helped manage the piston pin department on the duratec line of motors), and some of the stories he told me about the hourly guys, and the union guys are amazing, simply amazing. he found areas inside giant industrial shelves where guys had built forts with beds in there so they could sleep, and countless other stories of complete laziness.

[kenny]

God I need to build a fort here.

[Science Abuse]

#4 Let's not forget it was an American company that invented a car for the people and the assembly line.

America didn't invent the assembly line, Ford was simply the first to use it for making automobiles. The concept is a couple thousand years old. It made cars cheaper.

 

#5 Z06/ZR1 & Ford GT... Japanese has what a 1994 toyota and an embarrasing GTR oh wait don't forget the monster NSX.

And? Care to tell me how the Corvette is going to keep a million GM employees employed? Those are neat cars, but they do not help any arguments in this conversation. Toyota axed the Supra because it wasn't as proffitble as its siblings. It met sales goals, but the margin on it wasn't big enough to keep it in a family of Camrys and Carrolas. Toyota picked a direxction and they stuck with it, they built their industry around that common goal, and they sell a shit ton of cars as a result.

Toyota gets to stay open and stay profitable because it doesn't sink buckets of cash into "halo" cars. GM has no focus, and therefore does nothing exceedingly well.... excep the CTS-V and the Z06/ZR1.

[Drewhop]

http://www.automotoportal.com/article/Top_5_Worlds_Most_Successful_Cars_Ever

 

Toyota=winner

[CRed05]

#5 Z06/ZR1 & Ford GT... Japanese has what a 1994 toyota and an embarrasing GTR oh wait don't forget the monster NSX.

 

Pretty amazing that a car thats more than 10 years old can still be compared to brand new ones. Why dont you look at what cars were coming from Japan in the early 90s and compare that to american cars from the early 90s.

 

C4 vette is a joke compared to Supras, VR4's, 300Z's, GTR's, RX7's, even NSX's. First gen viper? Complete pile of useless. 400hp V10, most of those jap. cars will do that with BPU.

 

"Sorry, Ford, I have to ask for my money back" -Jeremy Clarkson about Ford GT

[STEVE-O]

Don't count the americans out. They didn't have to produce cars that didn't break because they didn't have to until now. It was called planned obsolescence and it made them lots of money. How many years of profitability did it afford them... 20? 30? If you want to talk social programs thats fine but if you want to talk business strategy thats a different story.

 

Ferrari underestimated Ford and they got the GT40.

 

Thanks.

 

agreed. until now what they did was no problem. And if what you guys say is true about toyota and their profit and how gm appels to people who can not afford their cars I always think about this

 

Do you think the people who are buying new z06 zr1 hummers m3's and most bmw and benz care about the price all to much? No they know what it costs and they will pay it because they have the money. BMW for the most part does not even try to get the average person to buy their cars because that is not their market. GM builds these cars not to sell millions of them but to show they CAN build the cars, the best car( from a driving performance stand-point).

 

Toyota dropped the supra because it was not what toyota was going tword. They are not a high performance marketbase. Like you said they wanted to appel to everyone and those who could actually afford just about any of thier cars.

 

So if you look at it this way is there really a reason to down talk gm for having appealing cars people can not afford? There are many cars the appeal to me that I can not afford so should I downtalk those people?

 

GM does need to decide what to do or it is going to be nothing but bad I do agree. Toyota realised what was important and went that direction.

[CRed05]

Toyota dropped the Supra because it didn't sell outside Japan, and in Japan they stopped it because they wouldn't be able to meet new emissions standards that were coming out in 2003.

[Adam]

Pretty amazing that a car thats more than 10 years old can still be compared to brand new ones. Why dont you look at what cars were coming from Japan in the early 90s and compare that to american cars from the early 90s.

 

C4 vette is a joke compared to Supras, VR4's, 300Z's, GTR's, RX7's, even NSX's. First gen viper? Complete pile of useless. 400hp V10, most of those jap. cars will do that with BPU.

 

"Sorry, Ford, I have to ask for my money back" -Jeremy Clarkson about Ford GT

 

care to back that up with numbers?

 

cause stock for stock i wouldn't say the vette of the same years of the cars you are talking about were not "jokes"

[CRed05]

"However, the C4 performance was hampered by its L98 250 hp (186 kW) engine until 1992, when the second-generation LT1 was installed, markedly improving the C4s performance. 1996 was a high point of small block Chevrolet development and the 330 hp (246 kW) LT4 was installed in all manual transmission cars."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvette_C4

 

 

EDIT: Incase your not aware, the VR4, Supra and 300zx had 320hp when the vette had 250

[Farkas]

I love Toyotas

[hpfiend]

America didn't invent the assembly line, Ford was simply the first to use it for making automobiles. The concept is a couple thousand years old. It made cars cheaper.

 

And this gives discredits american manufacturers and gives credit to the japanese how?

 

As someone else already mentioned, the reason I mentioned the Ford GT and Zo6/ZR1 are that they are demonstrations of engineering prowess. The Supra was not profitable because the Japanese companies could not make cars at the level of the corvette for the same cost. The FD Rx7, toyota supra, 300zx twin turbo, were much more expensive than the comparable year corvettes. GM put the LT1 in the 1992 corvette so the 93 Rx7, 94 Supra, and whatver else you want to throw out there was in the same ballgame.

 

And? Care to tell me how the Corvette is going to keep a million GM employees employed? Those are neat cars, but they do not help any arguments in this conversation. Toyota axed the Supra because it wasn't as proffitble as its siblings. It met sales goals, but the margin on it wasn't big enough to keep it in a family of Camrys and Carrolas. Toyota picked a direxction and they stuck with it, they built their industry around that common goal, and they sell a shit ton of cars as a result. Toyota gets to stay open and stay profitable because it doesn't sink buckets of cash into "halo" cars. GM has no focus, and therefore does nothing exceedingly well.... excep the CTS-V and the Z06/ZR1.

 

And how is Toyota focused? if you look carefully now they already have 11 models and are venturing into the truck arena... true diversification is good but not without focus and the effects of this do not rear their ugly head until the economy is as sour as it is... I would not be surprised if the big three were not around anymore, when the economy recovers if toyota doesnt cut back on quality to increase profit margins more and more until they found themselves in the same place the big three is... it is a cycle- people are people and people run businesses.

 

What toyota knows how to do well is build affordable (not really anymore but they have the brand power to demand higher prices currently) and reliable cars.

 

And I don't know how the toyota supra is comparable to cars of today- unmodified it is a whopping piece of @%#@ compared to a c5 or c6 corvette.

I would take a fox body mustang or c4 corvette any day over a early 90s piece of japanese manufacturing. But this is besides my point I mentioned those cars to demostrate GM's engineering prowess- they can build cars that can outrun cars in every direction that cost 2-4x lets not forget that the z06 gets about the same gas mileage as your honda accord or toyota camry. I haven't seen toyota do that yet.

 

True the big three needs to restructure their entry level and moderate income cars- this demographic is no longer loyal to america for the very reason that they live there anymore as evidenced by this thread and the big three took advantage of that and made lots of profit and hired lots of people on that phenomenon alone. They must now lose the concept of planned obsolescence win back these buyers by using their engineering prowess to build superior entry and mid level cars to the japanese that will last equally long. The big three has been producing cars since the 1950s and have employees that are taking pensions/benefits/high salaries if they are still working from 50 years of commitment. The japanese cars did not get serious until the late 70s if not early 80s that is 20 years less drag. They need to disolve their unions to reduce drag without bankruptcy and receive LOANS to give them the cash to subsist on the low profit margins they must make with to restructure and reposition themselves as the global leaders in the automotive industry.

 

If you look at my profile I have a honda car and we love it- I have nothing against the japanese manufacturers they had a different business strategy that is proving to be more profitable currently (well before everything hit the fan) after decades of it not being so-

 

I don't see any manufacturer making crazy profits right now.

 

I am just making sure the american manufacturers are not kicked while they are down without giving my two cents

[CRed05]

The big three has been producing cars since the 1950s and have employees that are taking pensions/benefits/high salaries if they are still working from 50 years of commitment. The japanese cars did not get serious until the late 70s if not early 80s that is 20 years less drag.

 

True.

 

In addition to that is that American car manufacturers made cars that Americans will drive. Nothing wrong there, it worked for them for a long time. Big honken gas guslers on the other hand do not work so well elsewhere in the world so euro and jap. cars took over in those places. Didn't take long for Americans to realize "hey, that shit makes more sense."

 

Face it, for the last 30 years the average american car stylings have been out of date, boring or just plain ugly. It hasnt been until lately, where American companies, and Japanese companies for that matter, have been copying European designs to stay up to date and decent enough for people to buy them.

[2 Sweet]

Toyota generally makes boring cars that appeal to normal people who just want something to get from point A to B. Most people buy Hondas, Toyotas, etc because thats what biased magazines like Consumer Reports TELLS them to buy. Not because they are better quality cars. Fact of the matter is that a lot of people are idiots and can't think for themselves or do their own research. With a Honda, you generally know when you need to replace the timing belt. If people knew when to replace the intake manifold on a Grand Prix or whatever, then people wouldn't think they were shitty cars.

 

And as far as boring family cars go, I'd take a new Malibu or Aura over an Accord or Camry ANY DAY. All personal biases aside

[TTQ B4U]

Toyota generally makes boring cars that appeal to normal people who just want something to get from point A to B. Most people buy Hondas, Toyotas, etc because thats what biased magazines like Consumer Reports TELLS them to buy. Not because they are better quality cars. Fact of the matter is that a lot of people are idiots and can't think for themselves or do their own research. With a Honda, you generally know when you need to replace the timing belt. If people knew when to replace the intake manifold on a Grand Prix or whatever, then people wouldn't think they were shitty cars.

 

And as far as boring family cars go, I'd take a new Malibu or Aura over an Accord or Camry ANY DAY. All personal biases aside

 

Fact is and has been that cars are simply A to B for most people. Ford had the same boring winner back when the Taurus was first born. Then came Toyota and Honda with a more sporty and updated best seller.

 

The domestics then went overboard with models and trim levels and styling and the imports stayed consistent with subtle improvements, while all along improving quality. The rest is history....they own the market and the sad thing is the domestics are all too late and still don't' have their shit together.

 

You're right on the Grand Prix....I've owned three...but none of them were as solid and well done as my Accord. The Accord was a way better balance overall with a much nicer interior. If it had a six speed when I bought it, I'd likely still own it.

[Nitrousbird]

UAW, enough said. Eliminate that, and many of the Big 3's other problems go away.

 

Pretty amazing that a car thats more than 10 years old can still be compared to brand new ones. Why dont you look at what cars were coming from Japan in the early 90s and compare that to american cars from the early 90s.

 

C4 vette is a joke compared to Supras, VR4's, 300Z's, GTR's, RX7's, even NSX's. First gen viper? Complete pile of useless. 400hp V10, most of those jap. cars will do that with BPU.

 

"Sorry, Ford, I have to ask for my money back" -Jeremy Clarkson about Ford GT

#1: You talk about HP ratings, and like to compare the base C4's horsepower to the horsepower of a MORE EXPENSIVE (and by a good chunk of change) VR4 and Supra. But you don't make mention of a ZR1 that was out in those same years.

 

You may say "but they didn't sell as many ZR1's as Supra's. No, actually they sold more ZR1's in the same span of time than they did Turbo Supras.

 

The Supra was a total flop here, THAT is why they killed it. Nothing more. The C4, designed in the early 80's, outsold the entire MKIV Supra sales every single year.

 

Make fun of the Viper, but other than the ZR1, what other car in that price range was making 400HP. Ohhh, but if we MOD car xxx (which BTW, modding turbo cars in the early/mid 90's wasn't even NEARLY as easy/common as it is now).

 

Ford GT - may be the strongest production motor ever made (in terms of handling mods).

[Ry_Trapp01647545522]

oh, look at that. another nice and biased "only the japanese..." article. oh, but how the japanese are perfect, they are fortune tellers, make $20k cars, and sell them for $10k, at a profit. the US automaker should just do exactly as they do, infact, they should hire only japanese management, because thats the way to success. nevermind that they are completely backed by the japanese government(how do you think the R&D for the prius was funded?). nevermind that toyota releases a rather large pickup truck with a rather gas guzzling 400hp V8 at the exact time of the truck and SUV market crash. nevermind that the current and future releases from both ford and GM have been garnering heaps of praise. nevermind that both GM and ford were teatering on the brink of a complete turn around until the three punch flurry of gas prices climbing at never before seen rates, the killer economic recession, and available credit evaporating hit all at once.

[sarcasm]nope, screw them. even though they have been working on great products and have been making tremendous strides in quality lately, i still believe the rhetoric that the japanese are the only ones that know how to produce good cars. as little sense as that makes, that a specific nationality can produce one thing better than anyone else, even though we are all human beings with completely unique brains.[/sarcasm]

I've heard this a few times lately:

 

1. File bankruptcy

2. Disolve unions

3. Restructure

4. Profit

 

Thoughts on that?

chapter 11 ensures that GM will implode, and more than likely bring chrco and fomoco down with it. for GM to live through bankruptcy, it needs cash(credit) to keep producing and selling cars. there is no chance in hell that they will get any credit that isn't federally backed, because why the fuck would anyone lend credit to someone that is in bankruptcy??? without credit, they dont produce cars, which means that they aren't selling cars, concluding with a complete halt in all positive cash flow.

and even if they were to get the much needed credit to produce the cars to ensure the much needed positive cash flow to stay afloat during the bankruptcy process, the general public isn't gonna buy these cars. who the hell in their right mind would buy a product that inherently has issues covered by a warranty from a company who is in the bankruptcy process??? if they go under, your screwed as far as warranty work goes. no big deal, take it to a shop and pay for the work to be done or do it your self, right? wrong, GM going under will pull with it hundreds of suppliers, and you will no longer have the parts(or affordable parts atleast) you need to fix your car. knowing this, no one in their right mind should take the risk of buying a vehicle from an auto company in bankruptcy.

 

there are many more reasons to, like michigan and possibly ohio, indiana, quebec, and northern mexico getting severly hurt with the failure of one or all three of the US automakers. read more here(most of these articles unfortunatly have liberalism slathered all over them, which should make some here happy):

http://www.cnbc.com/id/27723244

http://www.slate.com/id/2204582/

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/11/14/the-right-kind-of-bailout

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=a4893b49-36df-4784-9859-2dfa3a3211bf

[ImUrOBGYN]

lol I hear so many defending the american car with their lives. Can they build a good car? Yes. Are the Japanese perfect? Of course not. But the numbers don't lie. Post up pages of whatever you like, whatever opinions and the facts remain.

 

As far the supra/vette thing goes, and this is opinion mostly, I'd take a supra over a vette of the same year anyday. I've ran my stock 89 supra against an equivalent vette and there wasn't any competition. Straight line I was able to reel him in quickly and stomp him. The ride was 10times better in my car, the quality of the materials including fit and finish was way better in the Supra, as well. The driver of the vette even had to agree. Have you ever driven a mkiii or mkiv supra in good condition and then driven a vette of the equivalent year? I have of more than one generation. This doesn't mean I'm a fanboy. I tried buying american and having faith in them (I still do, though, I hardly know why), and was only disappointed everytime, new or used.

 

I also have an article where they compare the MKIII Supra (not the mkiv) to a vette and a Porshe of the same year. They chose the Supra. Was the performance far ahead of the competition? Not by much, but you couldn't beat the price and quality compared to the other two.

 

Numbers don't lie. Yu can't just build one good car and 10shitty ones. Not to say that's the only thing hurting the american car company. There has been many reasons listed here. I am an American. I WANT to have pride in my cars. Why must they make it so hard?

[VOLK_DC5]

I just got cut from germain toyota today along with a few others that have worked there for a while. time to job search

[TTQ B4U]

I just got cut from germain toyota today along with a few others that have worked there for a while. time to job search

 

service I take it? volume down?

[SpaceGhost]

I just got cut from germain toyota today along with a few others that have worked there for a while. time to job search

 

Was it because you own an Acura while working at Toyota?

[VOLK_DC5]

haha there cutting people at all germain dealerships I guess, it sucks

[TTQ B4U]

haha there cutting people at all germain dealerships I guess, it sucks

 

Wait until Obama tries to tax businesses more....they'll continue cutting or reducing wages.....it's all about profitability. Right now you're a victim of low business volumes.

[boosted98gst]

No offense to anyone but americans are just plain lazy anymore and it shows in everything they do, There is no pride in anything american or what comes from american builders anymore.

[OGRE]

#1 Do japanese companies have unions?

 

#2 Do japanese companies pay income taxes in the US?

 

#3 Are most employees at japanese companies full time with benefits?

 

#4 Let's not forget it was an American company that invented a car for the people and the assembly line.

 

#5 Z06/ZR1 & Ford GT... Japanese has what a 1994 toyota and an embarrasing GTR oh wait don't forget the monster NSX.

 

#6 How many employees current and retired on the pension plan do GM/Ford/Chrysler command compared to Japanese companies? Its a lot easier to not cut 0 out of 10 than 5 out of 5000

 

 

1. no, and tha'ts a good thing, they treat thier employees good enough not to need one.

 

2. yes.

 

3. yes.

 

4. who cares. . . invalid point.

 

5. again, no point.

 

6. is there only one way for a company to pay for retirment. From what i have been told, Toyota doesn't have pensions, they use 401K, that thier match/macth percentage is much higher tham most companies. Honda does have pensions . . . BUT, they contribute to thier employees retirement as they work, they do not count on future profits to cover retirement. When i get a paycheck from honda, they set money aside for my retirement. kinda common sense really.