TTQ B4U Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 If you find yourself grabbing your rifle or handgun and you live in anything that could be considered semi-residential, there is the line. The "line" for me is what is legally allowed. If I am legally allowed to discharge a shotgun, I'm good with that and birdshot. If the law allows for the firing of a .22 cal. pellet rifle, I'm good with that too. Using both safely and responsibly in general context is understandable and assumed in my argument. Thus I'm not shooting towards my neighbors house in either case if I'm allowed do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 The cases of people being charged are all commercial cases, and the others are all either discharging a firearm or destruction of property, which the FAA even says would be the case of taking down your neighbors drone, right in that article. up until April of this year - the standard for "commercial" operator was if you were making the video public or using it for a commercial purpose. That means if you posted on youtube you were a "commercial operator", even if you did not actually receive any money for the footage. The current standard as of April is that your footage has to be actually tied to commercial activity directly. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-14/drone-home-videos-on-youtube-no-longer-provoke-faa-wrath Now I want to listen closely - this is an interpretative standard by the FAA, it is not legislative, it is not case holding (because right now there aren't enough cases about this) it is the FAA deciding this is the standard and putting it in a memo. If they decide to go back to that pre-April position of nearly anything is commercial activity they can, and they can arrest you, and they can try you and you can take the risk that a court will agree with you and not with them (and then we will actually have interpretative case law to rely on). All they need is a rash of these kinds of dangerous behaviors and it's no big deal to flip the switch back to everything is commercial activity for our purposes. If you are trying to make the argument that you can shoot a drone down and somehow avoid jail from a state or federal agency, please by all means do it and let us know how it works out for you. Right now there are more laws regarding firearms and public safety than there are regarding hobby copter operation. That means in the overwhelming majority of the scenarios the copter operator is probably doing something legal and you by discharging your firearm are probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Using both safely and responsibly in general context is understandable and assumed in my argument. pixie dust and fairy magic is assumed in all my arguments so I win all the time every time. we aren't discussing cases where safety and responsibility are not an issue, we are discussing people's knee jerk reaction to something and an emotional response. Rarely do those tend to walk hand in hand with safety and responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 If you are trying to make the argument that you can shoot a drone down and somehow avoid jail from a state or federal agency, please by all means do it and let us know how it works out for you. From your own article, this guy did it and didnt do jail time, it was a civil property destruction case. http://gizmodo.com/this-guys-neighbor-will-pay-for-shooting-down-his-drone-1714496464 The FAA says that it would be a civil property destruction case FAA spokesperson Laura Brown told Gizmodo: “We do consider unmanned aircraft to be ‘aircraft,’ but the damage issue is more a destruction of personal property question that is outside our jurisdiction.” From your own article. The issue comes in when it is being used for commercial use, which the FAA has said they will regulate. Again from your article, guy shoots down drone, no federal charges, only charges over the firearm use , he was arrested for possession of a weapon for an unlawful purpose and criminal mischief There is literally NOTHING to back up that taking out a hobby, non-commercial drone, will get you federal charges, other than you saying so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 pixie dust and fairy magic is assumed in all my arguments so I win all the time every time. we aren't discussing cases where safety and responsibility are not an issue, we are discussing people's knee jerk reaction to something and an emotional response. Rarely do those tend to walk hand in hand with safety and responsibility. Thus why I clearly noted that my points were in context to my argument. If we go back to the general arguments like the one in this article, we can debate if what he did was responsible. Again, don't know if this guy lives in a suburb or in an area where there are 2 acre lots. apparently we can assume he is not allowed to discharge a firearm in his area otherwise he wouldn't have been arrested for that. Although if it's a 2 acre lot I'd argue who gives a shit if he fired birdshot. I would argue the guy shouldn't have confronted the drone owner or engaged in any conversation with him or any of them about anything. Let them call the cops and prove what they claim happened actually did. Let the LEO responding or the individuals provide the evidence that a shot was fired taking down a drone. Otherwise, there's no compelling legal requirement to answer questions from anyone. If there's a bullet hole in my neighbors house, I might be compelled to answer a question, but if it's just that someone heard what they thought was a gunshot I'm not going to answer any questions until I'm arrested for a clearly crime that is proved to have happened and in the presence of my lawyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 There is literally NOTHING to back up that taking out a hobby, non-commercial drone, will get you federal charges, other than the FAA deciding if it does or doesn't Fixed it for you. This is a woefully underdeveloped area of the law, you aren't guaranteed anything. there is nothing that says it won't happen either. Until there is case law (and by case law I mean a Judge actually writing an opinion as to what constitutes commercial activity) and/or actual written legislation the door is open to be prosecuted under federal laws if the FAA feels that needs to happen. Again, I totally recommend you should go out and test this out. Go walk through dublin or upper arlington or the short north with your rifle and shoot all the drones you see. I recommend you try to hurt someone as well because that will really get the government agencies churning. then let us know how it works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewtoys Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 I could careless if someone was flying one near or above my home. People need to lighten up. This billy feared for his daughters safety, but yet he discharges a gun in her presence. MERIICCAAA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Again, I totally recommend you should go out and test this out. Go walk through dublin or upper arlington or the short north with your rifle and shoot all the drones you see. I recommend you try to hurt someone as well because that will really get the government agencies churning. then let us know how it works out. You just pull random shit out of your ass so you can argue, don't you? Maybe you should read my responses in this thread. No shit firing a gun within city limits will get you in trouble. How many times have I already said that? That has absolutely NOTHING to do with drones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 If there's a bullet hole in my neighbors house, I might be compelled to answer a question, but if it's just that someone heard what they thought was a gunshot I'm not going to answer any questions until I'm arrested for a clearly crime that is proved to have happened and in the presence of my lawyer. if there is a bullet hole in your neighbor's house, you best bet is get a lawyer and talk through him and not to answer any questions if you have any sense of self preservation. you are going to some great lengths to justify what is clearly behavior driven by emotion rather than rational thinking. you really think people all hot and bothered about a hobby copter are thinking about safety and responsibility if the thing they reach for is their rifle? the whole reason we are having this conversation is because a bunch of people acted without regard to safety, you want to argue hypothetical to the end of time - sure, can we use fictional characters like my little ponies and the terminator? I mean is this really so hard of a concept that you you need to find the one rare example where it might be permissible to use a gun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hwilli1647545487 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Take a gun out of the equation. Let's say the drone was low enough to strike with a baseball bat. Does any of this change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyM3rC Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Take a gun out of the equation. Let's say the drone was low enough to strike with a baseball bat. Does any of this change? Right now most places you'll just be charged with destruction of property from what I'm reading. Unless it's an assault bat or maybe one under the minimum legal bat length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 You just pull random shit out of your ass so you can argue, don't you? Maybe you should read my responses in this thread. No shit firing a gun within city limits will get you in trouble. How many times have I already said that? That has absolutely NOTHING to do with drones. I am not pulling random shit out of anywhere. I have read all your responses. This argument between you and me boils down to you think its a certainty it won't happen and I say it is entirely possible to happen because the standards employed are fluid and completely within the government control. your point is nothing i say makes it a certainty and therefore it can't happen, and my point is nothing is certain about this at all and the FAA still has the power to make it happen if it wants to. The only way it will be settled is if a) something horrible actually happens and the FAA revises their position, or b) a government agency puts it into writing via legislation or caselaw. now if you just want to argue with me to tell me I am wrong, please do me a favor and go read up on the differences between the legislative law making, adjudication, and the impact of government regulatory memos and then get back to me. I can tell you that the way I think the wind is blowing on this is that the FAA really wants to take a broad approach to this but has found it has been an unpopular view, so they are probably waiting for the right case to come in so they can leverage public opinion to legislate the hell out of this area to both the determent of hobby pilots and the people that want to shoot them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Take a gun out of the equation. Let's say the drone was low enough to strike with a baseball bat. Does any of this change? under the state laws you are still destroying property. maybe you don't get charged with reckless behavior or maybe you do. no gun no violation of your local gun laws. As far as downing an aircraft and whether it applies - well the FAA's interpretation issue is around commercial use rather than how the aircraft was downed. so no not really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 under the state laws you are still destroying property. maybe you don't get charged with reckless behavior or maybe you do. no gun no violation of your local gun laws. As far as downing an aircraft and whether it applies - well the FAA's interpretation issue is around commercial use rather than how the aircraft was downed. so no not really. I"m glad you wrote out this long response to me, then post this that is a 2 paragraph version of what I have been responding to you with this whole time. Then go on to confirm that the law is based on whether or not it's commercial (which you at one point tried to argue didn't matter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 you are going to some great lengths to justify what is clearly behavior driven by emotion rather than rational thinking. I mean is this really so hard of a concept that you you need to find the one rare example where it might be permissible to use a gun? for me it's not emotional at all. I don't have any emotional thought about what I would do to a drone hovering in my backyard peering into my home. I will take it down without one once of emotion, just a simple act of ridding my backyard of something I didn't place there. Kinda like the birdhouse that was there in the tree when we bought the place. It was ugly and I didn't want it. It's not even a matter of whether it's permissible to me. The owner is going to have to prove I destroyed their property and provide evidence for that to even begin to matter. An upset drone owner who's toy dropped out of the sky and is now missing can point at me all they want. Let's see what they can prove. In the end destruction of property isn't a big fucking deal. Regarding the guy in the story, I side with him and while I would have handled the matter differently, we all know he's not likely going to do time. So he fired bird shot in an area that says it's a crime. His lawyer will deal with it and I'm sure he won't regret doing it. He will probably just rethink how he did it and perhaps will learn what not to do and say next time. Believe me, I'm sure more than once there's been a gun fired in the suburbs of Columbus taking out a skunk, raccoon, etc. and no fucks were given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 I will take it down without one once of emotion, just a simple act of ridding my backyard of something I didn't place there. see right there...that decision that you would choose illegal behavior rather than the appropriate action of notifying authorities - you are going to honestly claim that you came to that decision without some sense of indignation as to your invasion or privacy or intrusion into home ownership? Rational people don't usually find ways to rationally justify breaking the law. just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hwilli1647545487 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 under the state laws you are still destroying property. maybe you don't get charged with reckless behavior or maybe you do. no gun no violation of your local gun laws. As far as downing an aircraft and whether it applies - well the FAA's interpretation issue is around commercial use rather than how the aircraft was downed. so no not really. So property rights trump trespassing/privacy rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87GT Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Destruction of personal property is against the law. Discharging a gun at a remote controlled quadcopter is pretty irresponsible. Even if he used a baseball bat I would say the same thing. Photography is not a crime. What would I do if I was the shotgun guy? I would drop my pants and moon the quad. It would probably fly away after that and that would be the end of it. It would be a great story to tell my drinking buddies at the bar. Some of the comments i've heard on this topic are insane. Humans need to chill out. Unless this thing was chasing him and getting close enough to cause damage leave it alone. Hovering in one spot is not going to cause bodily injury. Shooting a lipo battery with a gun could possibly cause an explosion. Someone could be in the hospital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) see right there...that decision that you would choose illegal behavior rather than the appropriate action of notifying authorities Seriously? You know as well as I do that calling the cops isn't going to do shit. Cops come out every single year for fireworks in the neighbor hood behind us around July 4 and for the weeks after. We see them most every time. Hasn't and won't stop a thing. Just like fireworks, calling them on a drone is just going to result in a conversation, a slap perhaps and no one changing anything. No different than a speeding ticket doesn't change anything here on this board. you are going to honestly claim that you came to that decision without some sense of indignation as to your invasion or privacy or intrusion into home ownership? Rational people don't usually find ways to rationally justify breaking the law. just saying. Correct. I really don't care why the drone is there. It's not a matter of I feel I'm threatened or my privacy is being breached, etc. It's not mine, I don't want it there I didn't give anyone permission to come into my backyard, etc. thus I will take it down as needed. I really don't it wrong. If I parked my car in your driveway you'd have it towed or if I put my lawnmower or wheel barrel in your shed or on the side of your house you'd take and dispose of it. Maybe you would call the cops. I won't waste the time. If I found a wheel barrel on the side of my house, it would be gone in a heartbeat and no fucks would be given. If you want to fly your personal property around, that's cool, just be sure you do it somewhere besides on my property...aka in my back yard. Pretty simple. I don't care what the "law" says. In fact the laws around this are too gray if they even exist anyway. Again, let's see if the owner 1/8th to 1/4mi away is going to be able to prove. If I lose, no fucks given, just like with a speeding ticket, I'll pay it....and I'll take it down every time. Edited July 30, 2015 by TTQ B4U Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokin5s Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 for me it's not emotional at all. I don't have any emotional thought about what I would do to a drone hovering in my backyard peering into my home. I will take it down without one once of emotion, just a simple act of ridding my backyard of something I didn't place there. Kinda like the birdhouse that was there in the tree when we bought the place. It was ugly and I didn't want it. It's not even a matter of whether it's permissible to me. The owner is going to have to prove I destroyed their property and provide evidence for that to even begin to matter. An upset drone owner who's toy dropped out of the sky and is now missing can point at me all they want. Let's see what they can prove. In the end destruction of property isn't a big fucking deal. Regarding the guy in the story, I side with him and while I would have handled the matter differently, we all know he's not likely going to do time. So he fired bird shot in an area that says it's a crime. His lawyer will deal with it and I'm sure he won't regret doing it. He will probably just rethink how he did it and perhaps will learn what not to do and say next time. Believe me, I'm sure more than once there's been a gun fired in the suburbs of Columbus taking out a skunk, raccoon, etc. and no fucks were given. Tim, being a camera guy, I'm SHOCKED that you aren't more into the coolness of these devices... my quadcopter can record video at 4k and has a 14mpixl camera... that alone is freaking cool and some of the aerial shots I have been able to get are just amazing... With that being said, watch out, I'm going to fly over your house tonight... I will text you with I'm buzzing the tower when I do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Photography is not a crime. Taking photos from public land is legal but you can't just walk into a random backyard and take photos of their house without permission as that's trespassing. The intent for what your doing it for will be taken into consideration too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87GT Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Taking photos from public land is legal but you can't just walk into a random backyard and take photos of their house without permission as that's trespassing. The intent for what your doing it for will be taken into consideration too. Did anyone prove the quad took pictures or video of his house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Tim, being a camera guy, I'm SHOCKED that you aren't more into the coolness of these devices... my quadcopter can record video at 4k and has a 14mpixl camera... that alone is freaking cool and some of the aerial shots I have been able to get are just amazing... With that being said, watch out, I'm going to fly over your house tonight... I will text you with I'm buzzing the tower when I do it I never said I wasn't into the coolness of them. I have some great video from one above our offices and labs I bought it but our IT Guy pilots it as he's good with them. What do the kiddies call it.....Rustling Jimmies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Did anyone prove the quad took pictures or video of his house? The one in the story I posted? Don't know, don't care. Again, he should have shot it, picked up the mess and moved on. Fuck talking to the four bastards in the truck. Let them prove their story. Why he did anything more is beyond me. Did they see him shoot it? Can they prove it was him that did? Did they have evidence? I'm sure there are details we don't have. Like most people, he got himself in more trouble by what he did after he took it down than he would have had he just STFU and went about his day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokin5s Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 that would make more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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