1 in 5 EV owners in Cali going back to ICE

[BuckeyeROC]

Wow. Well, as someone who has traveled the country the past 20+ years for work, from the largest cities to the most rural areas, if living in high population density areas and taking public transit is the answer, kill me now. And I say that with all sincerity. I've learned that high population density areas are NOT for me and the complete opposite of where I want to live my life.

[99FLHRCI]

Bonus points for not understanding that the emissions other than carbon are orders of magnitude worse on that 50mpg car from 1991 compared to modern cars, not to mention it could never sell now for about 100 other reasons at least half of which are marketability. I'm also going to go out on a really short limb and say that at modern highway speeds it would get worse MPG than a modern fuel efficient car.

 

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=7474&id=25788&id=43297&id=43165tab2

 

2009 S2000, 2021 ILX, 2021 GC 2wd... all create more tailpipe emissions AND upstream Green House Gases per mile and get worse MPG.

 

Different cars with different use? Let's go economy... 2021 Spark, 2021 Golf, 2021 Mazda 2... https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=7474&id=42656&id=43251&id=43074 All create more tailpipe AND Green House Gases per mile and get worse MPG.

[gillbot]

You want less of a reach? Or should I say something more able to be accepted because people choose not to see what they don't have to experience?

Only 66% of American housing units have access to a garage or carport. Would you install your charger outside? Take out the rental properties such as apartment complexes that are not going to invest in the infrastructure to have chargers at every parking spot in their garage/carport.

 

Do you even know where I live RIGHT NOW?

 

Overall, I don't think we should be forcing a switch to all EV's and just disregarding ICE but here we are. It's a path that's coming whether or not we are prepared for it. Rather than make excuses for why it won't work, some are willing to embrace the change for the overall greater good and try to make it work the best they can.

[wagner]

Wow. Well, as someone who has traveled the country the past 20+ years for work, from the largest cities to the most rural areas, if living in high population density areas and taking public transit is the answer, kill me now. And I say that with all sincerity. I've learned that high population density areas are NOT for me and the complete opposite of where I want to live my life.

 

In the same boat. I got out of track home nation for a reason, I wanted away from concentrated pockets of stupid/shittty people.

 

There are so many layers to this onion and there's no simple quick fix type of answer. EVs will become more widespread, but they won't become the main form of transportation in our lifetime.

 

Now, if someone wants to go into business with me to start a shop that does EV swaps let me know. I've got some really good industry contacts that can help kick start the parts side of things that are looking for builders

[greg1647545532]

Yes it is MY need which is why I don't agree with forcing EV on everyone. Why should I be pigeonholed into a solution that fits YOUR need.

 

EVs are pretty bad right now, compared to where they'll be in 10 years. There are affordable EVs, and there are "long range" (220+ mile) EVs, and there's no overlap yet between those. Also, the charging infrastructure is still relatively nascent.

 

And yet, 80% of consumers who switch to EVs don't look back, according to the article linked in the OP. Evidently the pros outweigh the cons. This is sending a message loud and clear to automakers -- start phasing out your ICEs now, or be left holding the bag in 15 to 20 years when the only people who want them are niche customers who commute 110 miles a day and can afford new vehicles but can't afford houses with decent wiring.

 

I know Biden is talking about EV targets, but like everything else Democrats do, none of them are "mandates," nor will they have any teeth. California and maybe some other places have targeted sunset dates for sales of non-EVs, but honestly... the only way you're going to be "forced" into an EV is the exact same way you're "forced" into buying a car with fuel injection. The free market is screaming for EVs, get on board or get left behind.

[RedRocket1647545505]

Wow. Well, as someone who has traveled the country the past 20+ years for work, from the largest cities to the most rural areas, if living in high population density areas and taking public transit is the answer, kill me now. And I say that with all sincerity. I've learned that high population density areas are NOT for me and the complete opposite of where I want to live my life.

 

 

Exactly this. I hate people. I have zero desire to be packed in around people.

 

Personally, I COULD make an EV work for a daily commuter, but that's me and my situation. ~60mi commute. House was built in 2003, so has 200a 240v service. I'd have to install a 60a line to my garage (east side of house) from my panel in the basement (west side of house). I'm confident I could do it myself, but I'm not certified in electrical in anyway, so if I wanted to cover my ass, I would probably have to hire it done. Given how busy those guys are these days, they would probably charge me a fortune.

 

Also, for my frequent cross country hunting trips, an EV would be absolutely worthless. I'm frequently driving 18h a day, stopping in the middle of nowhere to camp out for a few hours before hitting the road again. And then when I get to my destination, I'm into some nasty mountainous terrain. Yea, an EV in their current offerings wouldn't fair well for this.

 

I understand each person's needs and situations are different, but I agree with the other fella, in that, shoving them down EVERYONE'S throats probably won't work, and is a bit presumptuous about how people live their lives.

[Mensan]

Would you install your charger outside?

 

I missed this!

 

Yes. The Tesla wall charger is designed to be mounted outdoors. Any hotel with a Tesla wall charger (the same one I installed at my home) is mounted outside, in the elements. This includes the units I used in Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. No issues.

[greg1647545532]

I'll reiterate -- automakers are clamoring to ramp up EV production to meet consumer demand for EVs. ICE powered cars are going to be around for decades; nobody is talking about cash-for-clunkering all ICE cars in the next 5 years. There's so much fear-mongering in this thread.

 

I agree with the posters above, EVs are not a solution to global warming, and politicians who talk a big game about how they'll clean up emissions are just pandering. BUT -- EVs have a lot of advantages as cars, and as long as cars are a viable product in 15 to 20 years, they're pretty much all going to be EVs because that's what consumers are going to want. Get used to it, but nobody is shoving them down your throat.

[Gergwheel1647545492]

I missed this!

 

Yes. The Tesla wall charger is designed to be mounted outdoors. Any hotel with a Tesla wall charger (the same one I installed at my home) is mounted outside, in the elements. This includes the units I used in Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. No issues.

 

So if you lived in an apartment then you would install a Tesla wall charger OUTSIDE and let everyone in the complex use it and you float the bill? Also still curious how you are running 220v with just 2 wires..... :gabe:

[greg1647545532]

If you lived in an apartment then you would install a gas pump OUTSIDE and let everyone in the complex use it and you float the bill?

[Not Brian]

electric cars lol

[TTQ B4U]

the only way you're going to be "forced" into an EV is the exact same way you're "forced" into buying a car with fuel injection. The free market is screaming for EVs, get on board or get left behind.

 

 

I'm not sure the free market is screaming to pay such high costs for EV's right now. In today's climate there's a lot of screaming for all kinds of stuff but when it comes to their paying for it and dealing with the other difficulties around them, the screaming goes away. Reality sets in.

 

IMO the world would be better off with plug in hybrids that give 50-100 mile EV only range but have ICE on board to pick up the slack. Again, a nice Model 3 Performance is an awesome car (outside the shitty looking interior/dash) but for $65k? Meh...hard pass for now. I see no real value in that. Give me a mid $30k car with 50 miles of Plug in EV range and a decent 300hp combined with an ICE Engine and I'd be good. Think Rav 4 Plug in tech inside a mainstream sedan or other CUV's which are selling hot now.

 

Doing that will provide more than enough around the town 80-90% EV only use and eliminate any long term charging station requirements.

[BuckeyeROC]

I have no idea on the actual or perceived demand for EV. I do know that most of the public has absolutely no clue how an ICE, EV, or any other kind of vehicle works. Currently, most put gas in, start it up, then they can BARELY work up the attention span to make it to where they are going.

[greg1647545532]

I'm not sure the free market is screaming to pay such high costs for EV's right now. In today's climate there's a lot of screaming for all kinds of stuff but when it comes to their paying for it and dealing with the other difficulties around them, the screaming goes away. Reality sets in.

 

Are Model 3s piling up in a warehouse somewhere, or is Tesla doing everything they can to make production meet demand?

 

They sold 450,000 Model 3/Ys last year. That's a lot of product to move for any single model, yet alone one in that price segment.

 

What am I missing?

[Otis Nice]

Those are not in every house. Never had to live with just fans? Never thought it was a luxury when you finally got a window A/C for your bedroom and were so happy when it got late and you were allowed to turn it on because electricity costs went down? Never had the unfortunate experience of running out of propane and not being able to use the stove or dryer (or furnace)? Never had a natural gas stove or dryer? Your experience is not the only experience. Thankfully, I feel many here are a little more well off. However, growing up living in a 2 person pull behind trailer with a family of 4, having to walk to my Grandfather's house to shit or shower has given me a different perspective and an appreciation that many of the things we take for granted are not something that everyone gets to enjoy.

 

How many in this situation do you think are buying Tesla's? I think we're comparing apples to ramen noodles at this point.

 

HOT TAKE: we need to stop government oil subsidies and roll out a gas tax. Sorry, but needed to be said. Get people into more efficient cars, have them change their transportation behavior (drive less, carpool more, use distance to work/activities as more of a home-buying or rental consideration) and better pay for our crumbling infrastructure.

 

:gtfo:

 

Wow. Well, as someone who has traveled the country the past 20+ years for work, from the largest cities to the most rural areas, if living in high population density areas and taking public transit is the answer, kill me now.

 

Deal. Dibs on your cars...and planes.

[TTQ B4U]

Are Model 3s piling up in a warehouse somewhere, or is Tesla doing everything they can to make production meet demand?

 

They sold 450,000 Model 3/Ys last year. That's a lot of product to move for any single model, yet alone one in that price segment.

 

What am I missing?

 

 

The 3 and Y are technically two models, sedan vs CUV. 450k still isn't screaming in terms of the entire vehicle market. All they are doing is taking a segment of the population that can afford or is willing to spend $50-60k on a vehicle and selling to them.

[RedRocket1647545505]

Are Model 3s piling up in a warehouse somewhere, or is Tesla doing everything they can to make production meet demand?

 

They sold 450,000 Model 3/Ys last year. That's a lot of product to move for any single model, yet alone one in that price segment.

 

What am I missing?

 

Where and to who are these being sold?

 

I'd guess city dwelling millennials, those who are upper-middle class, or those in lower-middle class who are stretching their budget looking for a status symbol.

[greg1647545532]

Where and to who are these being sold?

 

I'd guess city dwelling millennials, those who are upper-middle class, or those in lower-middle class who are stretching their budget looking for a status symbol.

 

Should automakers target country-dwelling brokedicks when making their 20 year product plans?

 

Yes, it's generally wealthy urbanites buying the electric cars now. That's who GM wants to sell to. That's who Ford, Hyundai, BMW, VW want to sell to. That's why they're all abandoning ICE cars over the next 15 years. They don't want to get caught on their asses when the people who can actually afford new cars only want EVs. They don't care if their consumers are pompous twits taking out 84 month loans to buy cars they can't afford. In fact, that's been their MO for years. You think the average Mustang buyer is looking for anything other than a status symbol? You think they're not stretching their budgets to get their dream car?

 

 

But I'll get off my high horse, if someone wants to post up some actual evidence that automakers choosing to drop ICEs over the next 15 years is anything other than rational actors reacting to consumer demand in a free-market economy, I will change my mind. Hit me with facts.

[Mensan]

Where and to who are these being sold?

 

I'd guess city dwelling millennials, those who are upper-middle class, or those in lower-middle class who are stretching their budget looking for a status symbol.

 

New cars, yes. Anytime you saturate the new car market it makes for very affordable used cars in the following years. Take any new car being made and your statement still stands. The people who have a lower income will be able to buy a Model 3/Y very easily in the next few years. In addition, once the used market is looking for batteries en masse the prices of replacement aftermarket units will fall as well.

 

Though, Tesla warranty covers 8 years unlimited miles for powertrain, so it may be moot for a while.

[RedRocket1647545505]

Should automakers target country-dwelling brokedicks when making their 20 year product plans?

 

Yes, it's generally wealthy urbanites buying the electric cars now. That's who GM wants to sell to. That's who Ford, Hyundai, BMW, VW want to sell to. That's why they're all abandoning ICE cars over the next 15 years. They don't want to get caught on their asses when the people who can actually afford new cars only want EVs. They don't care if their consumers are pompous twits taking out 84 month loans to buy cars they can't afford. In fact, that's been their MO for years. You think the average Mustang buyer is looking for anything other than a status symbol? You think they're not stretching their budgets to get their dream car?

 

 

But I'll get off my high horse, if someone wants to post up some actual evidence that automakers choosing to drop ICEs over the next 15 years is anything other than rational actors reacting to consumer demand in a free-market economy, I will change my mind. Hit me with facts.

 

No need to be a cocksucker about it.

 

I live in the country, surrounded by nearly $500k houses. Sure don't see a ton of EVs out this way. Not sure you have to be a brokedick to choose to live in the country away from folks such as yourself.

 

My point is, EVs don't make sense for a LOT of people, at least in their current iterations. Do I think that manufacturers shouldn't continue to innovate? Not at all. But, a HUGE portion of this country doesn't choose that Urban lifestyle, for a reason.

 

I'm not gonna dig into trying to find some "actual evidence" because I honestly don't give a shit. The car manufacturers are going to do what they're going to do, regardless of what I think. All I can tell you is that driving to work every day, I pass a lot of fairly pricey ICE vehicles sitting in driveways, and not a whole lot of EVs. Must be some reason for that besides us all being a bunch of broke dicks.

[RedRocket1647545505]

New cars, yes. Anytime you saturate the new car market it makes for very affordable used cars in the following years. Take any new car being made and your statement still stands. The people who have a lower income will be able to buy a Model 3/Y very easily in the next few years. In addition, once the used market is looking for batteries en masse the prices of replacement aftermarket units will fall as well.

 

Though, Tesla warranty covers 8 years unlimited miles for powertrain, so it may be moot for a while.

 

This is encouraging to hear.

[gillbot]

I'm not sure the free market is screaming to pay such high costs for EV's right now.

 

This is what's holding me off of a purchase right now. I'm not willing to pay the price for what they have out right now. Others are, and i'm glad they are an early adopter but i'm poised to wait and see how the tech moves forward.

 

 

Also still curious how you are running 220v with just 2 wires..... :gabe:

 

2 hots and a ground since on a true 220 circuit you don't need the 3rd for neutral. Many 220v hot water tanks (and other true 220v circuits) use 10/2 (or #8, #6, etc.) with ground as the neutral isn't needed.

[greg1647545532]

No need to be a cocksucker about it.

 

You're really fixated on forcing things down throats, eh?

[ec_E92]

Now, if someone wants to go into business with me to start a shop that does EV swaps let me know. I've got some really good industry contacts that can help kick start the parts side of things that are looking for builders

 

We should talk...

 

...but you need to clear out some PM's first

Edited May 5, 2021 by ec_E92
clean out your PM box!

[zeitgeist57]

I live in the country, surrounded by nearly $500k houses. Sure don't see a ton of EVs out this way. Not sure you have to be a brokedick to choose to live in the country away from folks such as yourself.

 

Forget EVs, I question whether people would live out in the country and commute if we all had to pay a real price/gal for gasoline or diesel. Recent estimates said the cost for gas would need to be $10-12/gal in order to keep up with road/bridge infrastructure demand.

 

Keep in mind the original Interstate Act supported building highways in the 50s/60s almost exclusively through use taxes and military/defense spending. China has over 90k miles of highway and we're still fighting with the 60k or so we built two generations ago.

 

Since the gubmint is footing the bill, we're all paying for it anyway, I guess. Enjoy getting a little dirt on your boots out there, cowbois.