New Law - Headlights w/ Wipers

[Likwid]

You forgot masterbating

That's not part of the normal routine.

[Likwid]

Per the article about this law that was in the Columbus Dispatch today, this is a secondary law. For those that may not know what that means, you cannot be pulled over or ticketed for a violation of this law. It can be added to a primary violation, speeding, DUI, etc.

same as texting while driving, but stop trying to bring sanity into here...

[cmh_sprint]

same as texting while driving, but stop trying to bring sanity into here...

My bad. All I can hear in my head is "stop the insanity". Post holiday blues overload.

[MidgetTodd]

That's not part of the normal routine.

So not denying just saying its not a "regular" occurance ?

How do you keep the mess off the steering wheel and does it stain leather?

[Gump]

Isn't there still an old law that states you cannot be arrested for a misdemeanor on a sunday?

[Todd#43]

Does it not take power to light the bulb, which is created by the turning of the alternator, which is turned by the engine which is fueld by petrol?

Does the load of the alternator not require the engine to use more fuel?

Multiply this by Every car on the ROad...Its a LOT of wasted energy.

The lights are powered by the battery, not the alternator. The alternator charges the battery. Its connected to the crank by means of a belt.

It doesnt cause the engine to work harder when your headlights are on.

[jporter12]

The lights are powered by the battery, not the alternator. The alternator charges the battery. Its connected to the crank by means of a belt.

It doesnt cause the engine to work harder when your headlights are on.

Technically, it does, but just not by much. By putting enough of a load on the BATTERY, with the engine running, the engine RPM's will drop significantly, until the computer compensates for this change, by letting more air into the engine, which in turn has to have more FUEL delivered, also.

With the above being said, I think it would take MANY THOUSANDS of miles of driving with the headlights on vs. headlights off to consume much more fuel. I bet it would be less than a gallon over say 10,000 miles? Basically not enough to worry about it.

[Likwid]

Well technically speaking wouldn't the draw from the lights lower the running voltage which would make it take longer to charge the battery?

Thus reducing the lifespan of the battery and killing our children with lead?

[jporter12]

Well technically speaking wouldn't the draw from the lights lower the running voltage which would make it take longer to charge the battery?

Thus reducing the lifespan of the battery and killing our children with lead?

Not longer to charge, but would require a higher charging rate, which would kill the battery faster, killing our children with lead. Just being a geek and clarifying that for you sir! The slower the charge rate, the better for the life of the battery.

[Todd#43]

Technically, it does, but just not by much. By putting enough of a load on the BATTERY, with the engine running, the engine RPM's will drop significantly, until the computer compensates for this change, by letting more air into the engine, which in turn has to have more FUEL delivered, also.

With the above being said, I think it would take MANY THOUSANDS of miles of driving with the headlights on vs. headlights off to consume much more fuel. I bet it would be less than a gallon over say 10,000 miles? Basically not enough to worry about it.

So, you're saying that the alternator is harder to turn based on the load the battery is drawing?

I dont think so.

[Harb67]

Well shit, I must be a terrible person responsible for the death of 90% of the entire polar bear population because I always drive with my headlights on. As soon as I get behind the wheel, I first put on my seat belt and then second turn on the headlights. I figure...if it's a good idea for my motorcycle to always have at least one headlight on, then why not do it in a car? Increased visibility = ALWAYS a good thing, especially when around shitty Columbus drivers.

[jporter12]

So, you're saying that the alternator is harder to turn based on the load the battery is drawing?

I dont think so.

Want proof? Connect a load tester to the battery, then hear the engine bog down. Seriously man, I work with this stuff for a living, I KNOW what I'm talking about. Try running a car with the belt disconnected and turn the alternator by hand. You can feel the resistance to turning.

If the alternator did not put an increased load on the engine based on the amount it's needing to produce, you would be getting free energy, which just does not happen in such a system.

[MattKatz]

So, you're saying that the alternator is harder to turn based on the load the battery is drawing?

I dont think so.

I absolutely am..and if you look at the big picture it could be a waste of an enourmous amount of energy.

I figured the governmental Hippies would have been all over this shit.

But seriously..the more amp load you put on your battery , the harder the alternator has to work and the harder the motor has to work to turn the alternator which requires more fuel(energy) t o maintain.

SO yes..It wastes energy.

Got it....Good.

[MattKatz]

you would be getting free energy, which just does not happen in such a system.

No Energy on earth....Is free.

Energy cannot be created or Destroyed..Only changed from state to state.

Fact.

[jporter12]

No Energy on earth....Is free.

Energy cannot be created or Destroyed..Only changed from state to state.

Fact.

Exactly my point.

[Todd#43]

You missed my point.

Obviously the alternator puts a load on the engine. The alternator requires the same amount of energy to turn whether the headlights are on, or off.

Turning the headlights on has no effect on fuel economy, or the lack thereof.

[MattKatz]

You missed my point.

Obviously the alternator puts a load on the engine. The alternator requires the same amount of energy to turn whether the headlights are on, or off.

Turning the headlights on has no effect on fuel economy, or the lack thereof.

Ummm..You no.

YOu don't have a valid point.

It does make a difference based on the load the actual ALternater sees depending on what is running in the car. (The load)

The more power being consumed(or created) requires more energy to turn the alternator.

The alternator does not comsume a "Set" amount of power from the engine..It depends on its output which varies by the need of the vehicle at any given time based on its load.

SO yes...I will say it again....It does change the enrgy consumption of an Engine.

No If, and's or But's about it.

Fact.

End of story.

(Now..would you likely see that miniscule amount on yor gas bill...No...But multiply it by 1,000,000 cars on the road and there is potential for a serious waste of energy. You missed my point)

Edited December 28, 2009 by MattKatz

[Todd#43]

Ummm..You no.

YOu don't have a valid point.

It does make a difference based on the load the actual ALternater sees depending on what is running in the car. (The load)

The more power being consumed(or created) requires more energy to turn the alternator.

The alternator does not comsume a "Set" amount of power from the engine..It depends on its output which varies by the need of the vehicle at any given time based on its load.

SO yes...I will say it again....It does change the enrgy consumption of an Engine.

No If, and's or But's about it.

Fact.

End of story.

(Now..would you likely see that miniscule amount on yor gas bill...No...But multiply it by 1,000,000 cars on the road and there is potential for a serious waste of energy. You missed my point)

So, what inside the alternator makes it (effectively) harder to turn when the headlights are on?

My point IS valid, until you can prove the above.

[Gump]

I'm butting in.

MattK is right. The higher the load the more energy it requires to spin the alternator.

Similiar to a motor, the heavier the load the more energy it uses. This is why breakers pop.

The reverse is the same for an alternator. Quicker the battery drops voltage the regulator requires more amps from the alternator which requires more energy. The magnetic field increases making it harder to turn.

Have you ever jump started a car that didn't bog down the source car?

[Todd#43]

The magnetic field increases making it harder to turn.

THAT'S the answer I was looking for. Points for you. However, running the headlights isnt going to increase the output of the alternator as the system is designed to handle that (assuming that every other part of the system is 100%)

Have you ever jump started a car that didn't bog down the source car?

Yup. I've used my diesel to jump start a couple of cars. Never heard the idle drop once yet.

[dustinsn3485]

Both points are correct.

And fwiw an alternator isn't a battery charger.

[Gump]

I forgot about that. Yes my diesel won't drop either. Diesel has a crap load of torque. Possibly two batteries. It's still requiring more energy to turn though. Kinda like a huge tank rolling down a hill and you tie an ant to it.

[MattKatz]

THAT'S the answer I was looking for. Points for you. However, running the headlights isnt going to increase the output of the alternator as the system is designed to handle that (assuming that every other part of the system is 100%)

BTW..Its Called Inductive Load.

And yes...as soon as you turn on the lights, the output of the alternator will increase to match the new demand whther you believe it or not, especially on newer computer controlled cars that directly control the Alternator from the PCM.

Would you also like to argue this point as well?

You were looking for something you didnt ask for...a technical answer.

I explained in layman's terms to suit the need of most here who wouldn't know what an Inductive magnetic field was.

SOrry for trying to please the masses.

I said it requires more poweer to turn...It does...End of Story.

YOu were wrong...on all counts.

[f4isvt]

Isn't there still an old law that states you cannot be arrested for a misdemeanor on a sunday?

I believe so I think there is one saying you cant be arrested the 4th of july as well.

[jporter12]

The magnetic field increases making it harder to turn.

That's what I was saying about trying to turn the pulley by hand with the belt off. You WILL feel the resistance, which I did not say is the magnetic field, soory for not being totally clear on that.

THAT'S the answer I was looking for. Points for you. However, running the headlights isnt going to increase the output of the alternator as the system is designed to handle that (assuming that every other part of the system is 100%)

Sorry, but that's wrong. Using a scan tool, I can read the amount that the computer is telling the alternator to output, and it WILL change. Care to guess how many amps those little headlight bulbs pull? It's usually 45-55 watts each, divide that by roughly 14 volts, which is what the typical charging systems maintains, so 90/14 is about 6.5 amps. That doesn't seem to be a lot, but on many newer cars, just running the engine pulls 30 amps, add the heater blower, radio, and other stuff, you're getting close to the capacity of the charging system really fast, therefore the headlights DO put more of a load on it, as it will be noticed more when the system is already loaded!

Yup. I've used my diesel to jump start a couple of cars. Never heard the idle drop once yet.

Dual batteries and higher output alternator, along with monster amounts of torque in the lower RPM range. It won't drop noticeably

And fwiw an alternator isn't a battery charger.

A new alternator will usually say to NOT use it to charge the battery, to make sure the battery is fully charged before starting the vehicle, to prevent damage to the alternator. The high load, all at once, upon startup will overheat the thing, killing the diodes or regulator.