Need a concealed carry permit to open carry?

[Aerik]

You know I like you Chebby so don't take this wrong but ......... Why man why? I wont open carry in public, it sends a message and the wrong one at that. And yes it does induce a panic in most people that don't own a gun, granted not in the eyes of the law but yes it most certainly does in the eyes of the public. I guarantee you people will be calling 911 when they see you walking around with the gun displayed on your hip as well as complaining to the manager in stores when they see you. This complaint will also push the store to post signs for no carry.

It is your right and it is legal, but why bother and why provoke a problem?

And on top of that if someone is there to rob the place or what not you'll be the first target because they know you're armed so there goes your element of surprise to assist in the incident.

I agree. The simple (and in my view unfortunate) fact is that people around here just aren't accustomed to seeing anyone other than LEOs walking around carrying openly. All it's going to do is cause you problems you don't need.

Also, 1000rrrider's right-- you give up a tactical advantage by being visibly armed. Someone who intends violence will likely target you first, possibly before you even know something's happening, depriving you of your opportunity to surprise him. It's far better to be thought harmless; you have better odds of getting a chance to act.

Overall, I would just stick to the concealed carry and call it a day.

[Hoblick]

You know I like you Chebby so don't take this wrong but ......... Why man why? I wont open carry in public, it sends a message and the wrong one at that. And yes it does induce a panic in most people that don't own a gun, granted not in the eyes of the law but yes it most certainly does in the eyes of the public. I guarantee you people will be calling 911 when they see you walking around with the gun displayed on your hip as well as complaining to the manager in stores when they see you. This complaint will also push the store to post signs for no carry.

It is your right and it is legal, but why bother and why provoke a problem?

And on top of that if someone is there to rob the place or what not you'll be the first target because they know you're armed so there goes your element of surprise to assist in the incident.

100% agree..

seems like some people on here just want to push the open carry thing waaaaaaayy to much..

you have a conceal carry so use it.

the point of carrying is to be able to protect yourself and your family in case of life threatening situation.

why feel the need to flaunt your weapon we there is no need to

yeah its your right, but there isnt a need for it in any situation.. unless you arent licensed to carry conceal

[chevysoldier]

Correct, but if the situation was to escalate your actions could easily be seen as disorderly conduct because you open carried for no reason other than you wanted someone to challenge your right to do so.

Not hardly. Who says I carried a gun to get challenged by a bystander? Again I have never once flaunted that I was carrying. I OC because it is my right to do so as an American. It is your right to not OC for the exact same reason.

You know I like you Chebby so don't take this wrong but ......... Why man why? I wont open carry in public, it sends a message and the wrong one at that. And yes it does induce a panic in most people that don't own a gun, granted not in the eyes of the law but yes it most certainly does in the eyes of the public. I guarantee you people will be calling 911 when they see you walking around with the gun displayed on your hip as well as complaining to the manager in stores when they see you. This complaint will also push the store to post signs for no carry.

It is your right and it is legal, but why bother and why provoke a problem?

And on top of that if someone is there to rob the place or what not you'll be the first target because they know you're armed so there goes your element of surprise to assist in the incident.

I agree. The simple (and in my view unfortunate) fact is that people around here just aren't accustomed to seeing anyone other than LEOs walking around carrying openly. All it's going to do is cause you problems you don't need.

Also, 1000rrrider's right-- you give up a tactical advantage by being visibly armed. Someone who intends violence will likely target you first, possibly before you even know something's happening, depriving you of your opportunity to surprise him. It's far better to be thought harmless; you have better odds of getting a chance to act.

Overall, I would just stick to the concealed carry and call it a day.

100% agree..

seems like some people on here just want to push the open carry thing waaaaaaayy to much..

you have a conceal carry so use it.

the point of carrying is to be able to protect yourself and your family in case of life threatening situation.

why feel the need to flaunt your weapon we there is no need to

yeah its your right, but there isnt a need for it in any situation.. unless you arent licensed to carry conceal

I'm not pushing OC on anyone. If you don't want to, don't. That's your choice. By law I have done nothing to induce panic so I am really not that worried. There are enough court cases to back me. I carry a digital voice recorder as well. When I do OC in public I dress in khakis and a polo shirt tucked in. I am usually clean shaven also. I give a professional appearance. I don't know if this helps me, but I know it doesn't hurt.

Tactical advantage is very debatable. There is nothing but theories on OC vs CC as far as tactical advantages. Maybe I lose my surprise, maybe the bad guy only wants an easy target and leaves after seeing me. I don't know and I am really not wanting to get into that kind of discussion. No one will win because there are no hard facts to back it up.

As far as business posting no guns signs because I OC in them is bogus. All the places I frequent have not posted, and some of the business that used to don't anymore because I have talked with them. I approach them and tell them I will take my business else where. When they ask why I explain myself. One is the Hartford Fair. They did not allow guns at all on the premises and after appealing to the board they now allow CC. Take that as you want.

I'll add this to. Why should I have to hide something totally legal? How is sending the message that this is legal in all aspects of the law the wrong one to send? Todd, you know guns don't kill people. It is the person that kills someone. This is why these gun bans take place. Oh my gosh, there is a gun and it's going to jump out and shoot someone. For fuck's sake come on.

For too long we as a country have let our freedoms become less and less little by little. You ever try to talk to someone when they ask you why you ride a motorcycle? They say it's too dangerous, you're going to die. How many people will talk with them and explain the reasons why you like to ride? You could just take a cage, it's safer.

[Hoblick]

i get your point..

but get mine

you dont see how far your going with it?

bringing a voice recorder with you?

dressing more respectable?

probably carry a copy of the laws around with you as well i assume?

it just doesnt make sense.. you have the right to carry a weapon concealed, you have a permit. why even get it if you just want to OC all the time to "prove a point"... yeah you can open carry, its legal, we get it..

its like you want the attention about OCing and want to lecture people on it..

to me if someone tells you , you cant in there place of business or whatever that it almost makes you uber happy to inform them that by law you can.

i dunno it just doesnt make sense to me and i think your blowing it way out of proportion

[chevysoldier]

i get your point..

but get mine

you dont see how far your going with it?

bringing a voice recorder with you?

dressing more respectable?

probably carry a copy of the laws around with you as well i assume?

it just doesnt make sense.. you have the right to carry a weapon concealed, you have a permit. why even get it if you just want to OC all the time to "prove a point"... yeah you can open carry, its legal, we get it..

its like you want the attention about OCing and want to lecture people on it..

to me if someone tells you , you cant in there place of business or whatever that it almost makes you uber happy to inform them that by law you can.

i dunno it just doesnt make sense to me and i think your blowing it way out of proportion

I do that when I carry to protect myself. Dressing with ripped jeans and a AC/DC tshirt and a gun won't bring more attention to me rather than dressing professional? You really have a problem with that? Yesterday was the first day I carried the AG handbook because I knew I would be out with a lot of people and law enforcement. Had LEOs take notice and not one batted an eye.

So when someone asks me to show my CHL when I OC I don't have a right to ask? And when they are misinformed I should let them continue to be misinformed? If they still don't want me to be there, I have no issues leaving. I think you feel when they say I can;t carry I get all giddy about it. No I ask what there reason is. If they say I just don't want you here, cool. If their reason is because it's illegal, how is politely informing them it is not illegal wrong?

Why get a CHL if I want to OC all the time? For one because it is illegal to OC in a car and unloading a magazine is a pain in the butt everytime you get in or out. Many people that OC have a CHL for that reason alone.

Edited July 5, 2010 by chevysoldier

[chevysoldier]

Hoblick and Kreator, either of you have a CHL? Aerik, I know you have yours, how often do you carry? I am just curious.

[jbot]

i'm not politically active due to my chronic laziness, but i'm with chevy on this one. i don't OC because I don't have the time or the inclination to deal with the massholes, and being wrongfully accused of disorderly conduct/inducing panic. i may attend an OC event if proper steps were taken so as not to needlessly freak out uninformed law enforcement, but otherwise, braver men than I may defend themselves until proven innocent.

debating tactical advantage is probably silly, but bottom line, unless i was straight out to kill someone, i would never in a million years go straight for the chump with the gun strapped to his belt. then again, there are lots of dumbass criminals. so far, the only story i heard of an OC guy having someone go for his gun was a security guard trying to take some mall shopper's gun and getting knocked the fuck out in the process. that may have been a false story (i never finished reading it) but other than that, i'd imagine an OC is rarely bothered by anyone other than massholes and uninformed LEO.

i think people ought to feel free to do whatever they feel is necessary to make them feel safe. for me, that's to CC on occasion when I'm driving through UP's neighborHOOD, but I think OC should be common place.

and as far as chevy trying to start trouble... i don't agree with that at all. it's not like he went into the PETA head quarters and started spraying bitches with freshly squeezed endangered baby seal blood. He went into a gun store that was posted with signs that specifically states they DID NOT prohibit open carrying with a CHL AND teaches CHL classes, and still got hassled. Would i be surprised? not really, because working retail has the same effect to mental sharpness as phenylalanine to phenylketonurics but i'd wonder what they're feeding these retards. If i OC'd at say... a teddy bear store, and they weren't posted but they bitched to me and called the cops to warn them of columbine 2? maybe i wouldn't be so surprised and wouldn't wonder.

i think it's also inconvenient to have to feel like you have to carry a voice recorder and a AG handbook on gun carry laws so that if you get hassled and possibly arrested, you have reference and untainted evidence for later. is it worth it to me to go that far? not at all. but for someone else? why not? they're not making me carry the recorder. live and let live.

there are so many things to write about this but i just don't care enough. chevy: i applaud your efforts, and keep up the good work. hope you don't get in trouble while you do, though.

[chevysoldier]

i'm not politically active due to my chronic laziness, but i'm with chevy on this one. i don't OC because I don't have the time or the inclination to deal with the massholes, and being wrongfully accused of disorderly conduct/inducing panic. i may attend an OC event if proper steps were taken so as not to needlessly freak out uninformed law enforcement, but otherwise, braver men than I may defend themselves until proven innocent.

debating tactical advantage is probably silly, but bottom line, unless i was straight out to kill someone, i would never in a million years go straight for the chump with the gun strapped to his belt. then again, there are lots of dumbass criminals. so far, the only story i heard of an OC guy having someone go for his gun was a security guard trying to take some mall shopper's gun and getting knocked the fuck out in the process. that may have been a false story (i never finished reading it) but other than that, i'd imagine an OC is rarely bothered by anyone other than massholes and uninformed LEO.

i think people ought to feel free to do whatever they feel is necessary to make them feel safe. for me, that's to CC on occasion when I'm driving through UP's neighborHOOD, but I think OC should be common place.

and as far as chevy trying to start trouble... i don't agree with that at all. it's not like he went into the PETA head quarters and started spraying bitches with freshly squeezed endangered baby seal blood. He went into a gun store that was posted with signs that specifically states they DID NOT prohibit open carrying with a CHL AND teaches CHL classes, and still got hassled. Would i be surprised? not really, because working retail has the same effect to mental sharpness as phenylalanine to phenylketonurics but i'd wonder what they're feeding these retards. If i OC'd at say... a teddy bear store, and they weren't posted but they bitched to me and called the cops to warn them of columbine 2? maybe i wouldn't be so surprised and wouldn't wonder.

i think it's also inconvenient to have to feel like you have to carry a voice recorder and a AG handbook on gun carry laws so that if you get hassled and possibly arrested, you have reference and untainted evidence for later. is it worth it to me to go that far? not at all. but for someone else? why not? they're not making me carry the recorder. live and let live.

there are so many things to write about this but i just don't care enough. chevy: i applaud your efforts, and keep up the good work. hope you don't get in trouble while you do, though.

Thanks Jbot.

[RVTPilot]

Chevy, quick question. Of all the conjecture in this thread on all sides, the one thing that jumped out at me was your digital voice recorder. Is that something you require for your job? Just curious how that worked its way into the conversation.

[chevysoldier]

Chevy, quick question. Of all the conjecture in this thread on all sides, the one thing that jumped out at me was your digital voice recorder. Is that something you require for your job? Just curious how that worked its way into the conversation.

No I don't. With so many people saying "You are going to get busted for inducing panic" and "it's just going to escalate the situation" I just wanted to point out that I know a person OC'ing is not always a welcomed sight. So I try to do what I can to protect myself should things get out of hand. Just like the Cleveland Heights Police incident. The OC'er got everything on videotape to protect himself.

I don't carry it when I CC, and not all the time when I OC. Situation dictates.

[ReconRat]

Open carry is a cowboy. And even a cowboy would conceal when going into town.

On the other hand, my choice of OC would be a quick draw drop rig. With a .45 long colt, either Colt or Schofield. Guess I'm a cowboy too.

I've heard OC is typical in Texas, I wonder if that's true.

edit: for those that don't know, "cowboy" is the loose term used by police to describe both police and civilians that don't stick to the ritual take down and encounter training. (Or even the gun handling procedures. I'm guilty.) Ergo, the cowboy wings it. There are lots of those. Cowgirls included.

Edited July 5, 2010 by ReconRat

[Hoblick]

yes i do have my chl

and i carry everywhere i can

[chevysoldier]

Open carry is a cowboy. And even a cowboy would conceal when going into town.

On the other hand, my choice of OC would be a quick draw drop rig. With a .45 long colt, either Colt or Schofield. Guess I'm a cowboy too.

I've heard OC is typical in Texas, I wonder if that's true.

edit: for those that don't know, "cowboy" is the loose term used by police to describe both police and civilians that don't stick to the ritual take down and encounter training. (Or even the gun handling procedures. I'm guilty.) Ergo, the cowboy wings it. There are lots of those. Cowgirls included.

I think they OC because CC is illegal. And I believe the magazine can't be in the gun either. I might be wrong but don't have time to research it.

[RVTPilot]

Gotcha. It piqued my curiosity, since I understand that recording audio of someone without their consent is inadmissable in either prosecution or defense of someone. Now perhaps I am wrong on that, and if someone has the details, please let me know. Either way, it just kinda stuck out to me. No big deal. Thanks for answering my question very directly.

I guess my unsolicited $.02 would be that regardless what is currently on the books about inducing panic may help once you get to the courtroom, but in the court of public opinion, where Johnny and Jane Smith take their families out they aren't up-to-speed on that, nor are they accustomed to someone OC'ing all over the place. You just said yourself, "that I know a person OC'ing is not always a welcomed sight". So you know that as soon as you step foot out of your front door, someone is not going to get it right. Someone is going to either challenge you (hence the need for your voice recorder) or at the very minimum, you are going to get disapproving stares from other customers in the establishment. The reality is regardless of the laws on the books, folks are uncomfortable with other folks they don't know touting lethal hardware. And quite frankly, if you don't carry a badge John Q. Public does have the right to question whether or not you should be carrying a weapon in plain sight and close proxmimity of him and his family, and John Q. Manager has the same to do so for his establishment. I do agree with your sentiment that in the case of a store that sells weapons, one would expect him to be better versed on the laws at hand, but that doesn't make it a requirement. Hell, folks buy computers from jackoffs at Best Buy all the time, and I know the lion's share of the blue polo hardware jockeys know jack shit about PCs other than what's on sale. Still, there seems to be the overwhelming contingent of gun owners who take offense at anyone taking the time to question why they are carrying a weapon somewhere, yet cannot seem to understand how someone who doesn't feel the need to pack heat to go get groceries wonders to themselves "he has a gun, what makes him/her uniquely qualified to carry one near me?".

Chev, I know (for as much as our non-pr0n interwebz site can provide me with) you are a decent guy. You're a fellow vet, and by and large, that plenty enough for me to be comfortable with you carrying around me. And I figure that for the most part, you don't OC as if its your entry into a biggest dick contest. My guess is at worst one of your thoughts as you OC is the same as the marking on a poisonous creature in the wild. "I am potentially dangerous only if you fuck with me. Otherwise, we're good". And as someone myself looking to acquire my CCL this year, I am good with folks who ask those that openly tout their firearms why they do so, and to a degree, even questions your answers as to whether or not they are fact. Just because you know you have read the laws, that doesn't make you the expert to the public. In your own mind and hear you know this, and that's good from the standpoint that it is the framwork by which you carry yourself, and your weapon. Think about this. We question law enforcement all the time. You do both as a motorcyclist with reference to traffic and vehicle laws, and as an armed citizen about weapons laws. In some cases, for very good reason and some mebers of law enforcement have proven to be behind on the latest laws, or in some very few cases simply abuse their authority. In the same vein, common citizens have the right to question why you are carrying. A citizen's right to bear arms does not supercede his or her fellow citizen's right to openly question that armed citizen's need to do so, or whether or not they are uniquely qualified to possess and brandish a weapon. I am of the opintion that right now, the Constitution has it wrong. It should not be a right to bear arms simply because you were born into this nation, but a privilege to those Americans that have proven themselves worthy of that responsibility. That amendment is dated, and refelctive of the nation at that particular time, and not the vastly different nation we find ourselves in right now. And before anyone gets going on the "well that won't stop the criminals from carrying..." angle, well, no shit. That isn't what we are talking about here. Think about this. Were it based on the privilege of carrying, you would then immediately reflect upon those around you that you have (or should have) met all the necessary criteria to posession of that weapon, and potentially far less of the questioning and disapproving stares from your fellow countrymen. If law enforcment asks you for proof, you show them your license, and be on your way. But by having it as a right that is justifaibly debated now, and then subject to a variety of different laws from one place to another, one situation or another, we will continue to find ourselves mired in constant debate of which right it greater, who is right, and who is wrong, which only exacerbates the tension between gun activists, and anti-guners.

I think that if you feel that where you are going is potentially unsafe, you have the right to be prepared to defend yourself. But there's also advice we all got from mo mand dad a long time ago. If its not someplace you feel you're safe, ya probably don't need to be going there in the first place. Just because the store is called Target doesn't mean it is filled with them.

[kawi kid]

true problem is how guns are now commonly viewed as bad. anyone with a gun is going to do "bad things" cuz that is all guns are for.

[ReconRat]

Texas cannot OC at all. Although they do have a new "open carry in vehicle" law.

Texas CC is legal with permit. Ohio / Texas don't have reciprocity yet.

Note: Texas law specifically does not permit "printing" of CC weapon. (Visible through clothing.)

And... Texas is attempting to pass OC legislation.

Edited July 5, 2010 by ReconRat

[kawi kid]

here is a little map that helps you can select the state you have a license with and the ones you might want.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/LicMaps/ccwmap.php

[John]

im going back to vermont where i dont even need a permit to carry, as it should be.

[chevysoldier]

Texas cannot OC at all. Although they do have a new "open carry in vehicle" law.

Texas CC is legal with permit. Ohio / Texas don't have reciprocity yet.

Note: Texas law specifically does not permit "printing" of CC weapon. (Visible through clothing.)

And... Texas is attempting to pass OC legislation.

That's what it was. I knew there was something weird like that. Thanks Tom.

[Uncle Punk]

Damn, I never would have thought this subject would have been a topic with this much discussion on this board. I think its cool and find all the replies interesting.

I think chevysoldier should open carry any time he feels like it but he should be better prepared for the confrontations. When he posts them I would hope he would be more sincere about expecting a confrontation and just state them as a matter of fact rather than can you believe what happened to me in a situation I created. The voice recorder is a very good idea to protect himself from LEO who would learn of the laws after they have abused their power by harassing him and possibly change their story to protect themselves.

Chevysolder is correct about no one being able to state for a fact about the tactical superiority of one method over the other. I open carry occasionally but only when I am by myself. If I am with family I don't want any extra attention on me or them until I can provide them with cover and concealment. When I am by myself I do think there are times when showing potential opposition would keep an undetermined bad guy from making a poor decision. I don’t think one method is superior over another and it is a personal choice based on the sum of one’s life experiences and education up to that point.

I don't think LEO has the right to check out anyone who is carrying a gun nor should they. If a dispatcher takes a call from someone about a man with a gun they should ask them if the gun is holstered or is the person doing anything illegal, if not it should be a non event and no one should be harassed. If a LEO wants to drive by and take a look I wouldn't take issue with that but if the person isn't doing anything illegal they should be left alone. Carrying a holstered weapon and brandishing one are two different scenarios and should be handled differently. No one should be subject to a challenge while going about their business in a perfectly legal manor weather you like what they are doing or not.

Every person should have the right to protect them self by virtue of being born, period, regardless of where they are born. The manner in which they chose is not up to the rest of us as long as it doesn't put the rest of us at risk. We don't have the right to decide who is qualified to defend themselves unless they have caused others harm in doing so. I am disappointed in RVTPilots view on that subject and can't imagine someone thinking otherwise especially when they have sworn to uphold the constitution. Protecting me is not a privilege it is a right that no man can take away. While some subjects we discuss here I might be able to be swayed from my original stand this is one I am sure you cannot convince me that my self preservation is a privilege and not a right.

[kawi kid]

Every person should have the right to protect them self by virtue of being born, period, regardless of where they are born.

i believe that is one of our rights endowed to us by our creater along with liberty and pursuit of happiness.

[RVTPilot]

Damn, I never would have thought this subject would have been a topic with this much discussion on this board. I think its cool and find all the replies interesting.

I think chevysoldier should open carry any time he feels like it but he should be better prepared for the confrontations. When he posts them I would hope he would be more sincere about expecting a confrontation and just state them as a matter of fact rather than can you believe what happened to me in a situation I created. The voice recorder is a very good idea to protect himself from LEO who would learn of the laws after they have abused their power by harassing him and possibly change their story to protect themselves.

Chevysolder is correct about no one being able to state for a fact about the tactical superiority of one method over the other. I open carry occasionally but only when I am by myself. If I am with family I don't want any extra attention on me or them until I can provide them with cover and concealment. When I am by myself I do think there are times when showing potential opposition would keep an undetermined bad guy from making a poor decision. I don’t think one method is superior over another and it is a personal choice based on the sum of one’s life experiences and education up to that point.

I don't think LEO has the right to check out anyone who is carrying a gun nor should they. If a dispatcher takes a call from someone about a man with a gun they should ask them if the gun is holstered or is the person doing anything illegal, if not it should be a non event and no one should be harassed. If a LEO wants to drive by and take a look I wouldn't take issue with that but if the person isn't doing anything illegal they should be left alone. Carrying a holstered weapon and brandishing one are two different scenarios and should be handled differently. No one should be subject to a challenge while going about their business in a perfectly legal manor weather you like what they are doing or not.

Every person should have the right to protect them self by virtue of being born, period, regardless of where they are born. The manner in which they chose is not up to the rest of us as long as it doesn't put the rest of us at risk. We don't have the right to decide who is qualified to defend themselves unless they have caused others harm in doing so. I am disappointed in RVTPilots view on that subject and can't imagine someone thinking otherwise especially when they have sworn to uphold the constitution. Protecting me is not a privilege it is a right that no man can take away. While some subjects we discuss here I might be able to be swayed from my original stand this is one I am sure you cannot convince me that my self preservation is a privilege and not a right.

I think we are lost in translation somewhere, UP, though if we are not, I will respectfully agree to disagree. I would wholeheartedly agree that self preservation is a right. The means by which you chose to preserve yourself however should be graduated, and those with the most significant means of permanently altering ones life (and the understood means of self preservation) should not be granted simply because of citizenship. I didn't state that I think the defending ones self was a privilege. We are all born with the right to preserve and protect ourself. But in this day and age, I am not of the opinion that it for one takes a handgun to do so, nor do I think because you have the right to defend yourself that it gives you the right to simply carry a gun without proving you have the mental stability to do so, or established yourself to some form of authority the proper judgement skills necessary to carry a firearm in a public setting. Some of this has to do with the ambiguity that currently exists with our gun laws, some of it has to do with our species and its current sociologial state with regard to firearms. You and I both know that the moment you were in a position to discharge a firearm in a public setting because you understood your life to be in imminent danger that your life, as well as everyond around that situation would be changed permanently, regardless of the level of significance for each person. That shot fired is a bell you cannot unring. Regardless of where that bullet would land, or the harm done, that is a situation that I would want the person posessing and discharging that weapon to be certified and recognized beyond a reasonable doubt to be capable of understanding the responsibility that comes with that decision. You and I both know as well that not every person born unto this nation is capable of understanding and respecting the gravity of said descision. It is within those parameters that I find the right to self preservation becomes dependent on the privilege of how it is executed. Your right to self preservation also allows you the ability to not engage in activity that is potentially threatening. Are we aware of every single threat out there when we step outside the confines of our homes, of course not. Is it necessary to then take the steps to deal with a worst-case scenario each and every time we leave? Not really. Each moment is a judgement call, and therein lies the most significant aspect of self preservation: discretion. And unfortunately, ever single born American does not come equipped with the discretion necessary to carry a firearm. Therefore I feel the ability to do so should be extended as a privilege to those who have satisfied an established set of requirements, and be able to maintain one's standing within those parameters rather than simply being born under the Constitution of The United States of American and co-signed with their birth certificate.

And as you recognized me as someone sworn to defend that Constitution, I did so, and would do so once again with these views. I know that my POV is one of desired perfection for this case, I know that its not always wise to allow perfection to interfere with simply making things better. With what wisdom and experience that I have acquired in the 19 years since I took that oath, I would have done it all over again, and would today, were it not for the fact my body isn't much more than a one-time protective device for the Marine standing behind me. Hell, I served the majority of my service under Bill Clinton, and I loathe the idea he was ever leader of the free world. He shit on us when we were in, and showed little respect for the veterans while he served his watch. But I would have then, and would now for the current President take a bullet for them. Not because of the person they are, but what they represent. So if I am willing to take one for freaking Bill Clinton, I would die on any soil to preserve the rights and freedoms of my fellow Americans. Even if I don't agree to the degree of liberty that they provide.

[kreator]

Hoblick and Kreator, either of you have a CHL? Aerik, I know you have yours, how often do you carry? I am just curious.

I have had my CHL for 5 years and almost always carry

[Aerik]

Hoblick and Kreator, either of you have a CHL? Aerik, I know you have yours, how often do you carry? I am just curious.

Everywhere except school (or on the way to or from).

[ReconRat]

Note: As far as I know, recording other people's voice without permission is a violation of Federal wiretapping laws, and is prosecuted. If recording, the first thing you should say, when spoken to, is "I'm recording" or something similar. So that it is very clear. Then you're safe, and it goes from there.

No, I don't think people wandering through your home movies w/voice in the park can prosecute. Not that people haven't tried... In those cases it is obvious. That doesn't count. It is recording without knowledge that isn't allowed.

Oddly, that isn't the case with law enforcement. They record all the time, and nothing is said about it.