The Government wants to suck you dry

[20thGix]

A guy at work just brought up today how "Obama" wants to start making you pay tax on online purchases and what have you. I pretty much squashed his Obama bashing with " Its called Use Tax and Ohio been bustin you with that for years". Whether your honest enough to pay it or not is a different story.

And another thing i was listening to Sean Hannity today and he was claiming in some states when the Bush tax cuts expire resident will be paying more than 60% of there income in taxes. Personally i find that hard to believe but im no expert. The sad thing is that alot of people hear outlandish claims from both sides and take it as the gospel.

[YSR_Racer_99]

Hannity is in that portion (highhhhh income) that will feel the brunt of the taxes.

Atlas is about to shrug. Overtax the achievers, and they'll stop working. They'll pull their money, sit back, and wait for things to change.

I didn't find anything on the minimum wage earners specifically, but the study I found showed that the middle segment of the middle class (approx 20% of the population) will be paying about 50% more in federal taxes. Minimum wage earners don't pay taxes, anyhow. They typically get back more than they give. All part of the redistribution.

It frustrates me when Justin/ jrmmiii and Cheech say "go find facts", but its actually a good thing. I'm not going to convince them to be conservative, and they're not going to convince me to be liberal. Having to back up statements is not a bad thing. Thats not to say that I'm going to go pull sources on everything I post, but I may think twice before posting it. For example, I had a rant last week where I said something to the effect of "liberals want to save trees, but kill babies". Find a source? Not worth it, when its a recognized truth. I think its interesting (and sometimes maddening) to see how the other side thinks, whatever the "other side" may be. At least things are usually kept fairly civil.

[RFM]

Mmmmm... Baby stew.

[John]

as any server will tell you, you divide your tips into two groups. the one you report and the one that goes straight into your pocket with no one being the wiser.

you can make 400 bucks in tips and only report 10 dollars.

also, do you know you have to pay use tax on anything that you buy online? but honestly, does anyone report that stuff?

[Disclaimer]

It frustrates me when Justin/ jrmmiii and Cheech say "go find facts", but its actually a good thing. I'm not going to convince them to be conservative, and they're not going to convince me to be liberal. Having to back up statements is not a bad thing. Thats not to say that I'm going to go pull sources on everything I post, but I may think twice before posting it. For example, I had a rant last week where I said something to the effect of "liberals want to save trees, but kill babies". Find a source? Not worth it, when its a recognized truth.

Really? Recognized truth? What other "recognized truths" do you subscribe to?

Sounds like you're one of those that "if it gets repeated enough times, and I hear it enough times, then it must be true"...

Did you know Glenn Beck allegedly raped and murdered a girl in 1990?

[jporter12]

Did you know Glenn Beck allegedly raped and murdered a girl in 1990?

Keep repeating it, and everyone will eventually accept it as fact!

[jhaag]

We get the shit taxed out of us. Anybody that thinks otherwise is a twat. Anyone that supports it is a twat.

qft. but' date=' i wanted to use "twat", now i cant cause it will look like i'm copying you.....

Keep repeating it, and everyone will eventually accept it as fact!

touche

[cg2112]

To give a little more credence to the thread title:

If/when the Bush tax cuts expire, when state and local taxes are factored into the equation, certain regions of the country will have tax rates north of 50%.

With a minimum wage job of $7.50 an hour, you actually get to bring home $3.75. Basically that's $120 a week, or roughly $500 a month. Hope you like Aldi's macaroni, and government cheese.

How does this math work? When the Bush tax cuts expire, a minimum wage earner is going to be largely unaffected. A person making $7.50 an hour is going to earn $15600, if they happen to work 40 hours a week. In the end, that amounts to a yearly tax bill of $625, and $67 (if that) state. So, more like a take home pay of $6.60 an hour, or $264 (after payroll taxes are factored in). And this is with nothing but the standard deductions and exemptions.

The Bush tax cuts expiring doesn't affect state and local taxes at all, and really only affects a very small number of earners.

[YSR_Racer_99]

Lost me at "allegedly".

Edited August 19, 2010 by YSR_Racer_99

[dorifto240]

Wow, glad I jumped on here. To Cheech, I thought the "I'm going out of town" statement was sufficient to answer your question. Pushy, pushy.

But alright. Before we begin, I would like it noted that I said certain areas would be near 50%.

So we'll take the low end of the tax bracket, which unless congress amends the tax cuts, will expire as well. That bumps their tax rate up to 15%

Ohio has an interesting tax bracket, they charge a flat rate apparently, and an additional percentage for each bracket. (see here)

For our example, making 15,000, they would have to pay $92.00 and then an additional 2.4%. (I used the 08, 09, 10 tax rates)

Columbus has a tax rate of 2.5%.

So for our minimum wage employee, they're now paying roughly a fifth (roughly) of what they earn to the government. Not including Medicare, Social Security and other deductions. Not bad; not great, but not bad.

For a median income earner lets say $60,000:

They now fall into a 28% tax rate, plus 1100 flat rate from the state of Ohio (which is a little less than 2%) and an additional 4% tax plus the 2.5% rate for Columbus. 36.5% of their income is now gone to the government. Again not including deductions.

That's for a single individual filing taxes.

At $100,000:

They fall into the 31% federal tax bracket (with the hike included), a flat rate of $2843 (almost 3%) and a tax rate of almost 5%, plus the 2.5% tax rate from Columbus. They now pay 41.5% of their wages go to taxes.

Do we want me to keep going until I hit 50% (it's coming up pretty quickly)

A few flaws in my math should be noted:

This is a generalization. There are deductions, addendums, loop holes, exemptions and more in the tax code. We could tweak numbers all we want.

Secondly, this was a simple math formula, that didn't factor in things like order of taxation. That is to say, that the federal tax could be taken out first, then the state tax taken out from the remainder, then the municipality tax.

However, if I did that, my numbers would be larger. 2.5% of $80 is $3.13, so I'd have to convert fractions to compare apples to apples.

I didn't include social security and medicare deductions, merely because I didn't want to. If we consider that a "tax" as well, then the final amount taken by the government goes up as well.

I didn't factor in the School Tax, which I should have. I apologize for that, but by all means, add it in!

Is my math slightly suspect? Sure, why not. But even in Ohio tax payers below or near the $250,000 mark will be paying significantly higher taxes.

Sources:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/26062.html (for estimated Fed tax rates)

http://www.tax.ohio.gov/divisions/ohio_individual/individual/annual_tax_rates.stm

https://thefinder.tax.ohio.gov/StreamlineSalesTaxWeb/ZipLookup/LookupByZipResults_Municipal.aspx?from=lookup&muniFIPS=18000&countyFIPS=049 (I used the 43204 Zip Code)

Now I'm going back to my vacation, I look forward to reading this come Sunday or Monday!

Discuss!

EDIT: We also aren't factoring in the fact that the higher tax brackets have better accountants. Meaning that a larger portion of those taxes aren't paid, where as in lower tax brackets that doesn't happen as much.

Furthermore, we aren't factoring in other taxes that are paid on a regular basis (sales tax, gas tax, federal fees, etc), which would push everyones amounts paid in taxes even higher.

What has saved us all, has been that the "pie" has gotten increasingly larger over the years. a half-formed idea of mine is that in reality, our share has actually dwindled as compared to a hundred years ago, but the pie itself is so large, we're taking home more money (I don't have any research/sources for that, again it's just a thought. Don't jump all over it, people) than individuals were a hundred years ago (maybe, not factoring inflation)

Edited August 20, 2010 by dorifto240

[Cheech]

Wow, glad I jumped on here. To Cheech, I thought the "I'm going out of town" statement was sufficient to answer your question. Pushy, pushy.

As I have stated numerous times before, I absolutely can't stand fearmongering and am all for improving discourse. That doesn't happen when I just let someone dump a truckload of derp onto the thread without getting called on it. So what do you have for me...

{quote]But alright. Before we begin, I would like it noted that I said certain areas would be near 50%. {/quote]

I will note you said NORTH of 50%, which would indicate to me that the effective tax rate was higher than half.

So we'll take the low end of the tax bracket, which unless congress amends the tax cuts, will expire as well. That bumps their tax rate up to 15%

Ohio has an interesting tax bracket, they charge a flat rate apparently, and an additional percentage for each bracket. (see here)

For our example, making 15,000, they would have to pay $92.00 and then an additional 2.4%. (I used the 08, 09, 10 tax rates)

Columbus has a tax rate of 2.5%.

So for our minimum wage employee, they're now paying roughly a fifth (roughly) of what they earn to the government. Not including Medicare, Social Security and other deductions. Not bad; not great, but not bad. [\quote]

I will take this as admittance that you can't come up with the 50% income tax rate for minimum wage workers, since that was the entire premise of your argument to begin with.

For a median income earner lets say $60,000:

They now fall into a 28% tax rate, plus 1100 flat rate from the state of Ohio (which is a little less than 2%) and an additional 4% tax plus the 2.5% rate for Columbus. 36.5% of their income is now gone to the government. Again not including deductions.

That's for a single individual filing taxes.

At $100,000:

They fall into the 31% federal tax bracket (with the hike included), a flat rate of $2843 (almost 3%) and a tax rate of almost 5%, plus the 2.5% tax rate from Columbus. They now pay 41.5% of their wages go to taxes.

Do we want me to keep going until I hit 50% (it's coming up pretty quickly) [\quote]

No need, you already proved your argument false. I'm well aware that the income tax rate for middle class workers sucks seeing as I am one.

A few flaws in my math should be noted:

This is a generalization. There are deductions, addendums, loop holes, exemptions and more in the tax code. We could tweak numbers all we want.

Secondly, this was a simple math formula, that didn't factor in things like order of taxation. That is to say, that the federal tax could be taken out first, then the state tax taken out from the remainder, then the municipality tax.

However, if I did that, my numbers would be larger. 2.5% of $80 is $3.13, so I'd have to convert fractions to compare apples to apples.

I didn't include social security and medicare deductions, merely because I didn't want to. If we consider that a "tax" as well, then the final amount taken by the government goes up as well.

I didn't factor in the School Tax, which I should have. I apologize for that, but by all means, add it in!

Is my math slightly suspect? Sure, why not. But even in Ohio tax payers below or near the $250,000 mark will be paying significantly higher taxes.

Sources:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/26062.html (for estimated Fed tax rates)

http://www.tax.ohio.gov/divisions/ohio_individual/individual/annual_tax_rates.stm

https://thefinder.tax.ohio.gov/StreamlineSalesTaxWeb/ZipLookup/LookupByZipResults_Municipal.aspx?from=lookup&muniFIPS=18000&countyFIPS=049 (I used the 43204 Zip Code)

Now I'm going back to my vacation, I look forward to reading this come Sunday or Monday!

Discuss!

EDIT: We also aren't factoring in the fact that the higher tax brackets have better accountants. Meaning that a larger portion of those taxes aren't paid, where as in lower tax brackets that doesn't happen as much.

Furthermore, we aren't factoring in other taxes that are paid on a regular basis (sales tax, gas tax, federal fees, etc), which would push everyones amounts paid in taxes even higher.

What has saved us all, has been that the "pie" has gotten increasingly larger over the years. a half-formed idea of mine is that in reality, our share has actually dwindled as compared to a hundred years ago, but the pie itself is so large, we're taking home more money (I don't have any research/sources for that, again it's just a thought. Don't jump all over it, people) than individuals were a hundred years ago (maybe, not factoring inflation)

No arguments here about the pie analogy. You are correct in observing the tax base continues to get larger over the years, however that also means there are more people to provide services to. Taking home more money is also a factor, but I think that plays more to inflationary forces than anything else.

However, thanks for having well-reasoned arguments. Doesn't that feel better than just throwing a bunch of on the screen?

[Cheech]

Hannity is in that portion (highhhhh income) that will feel the brunt of the taxes.

Atlas is about to shrug. Overtax the achievers, and they'll stop working. They'll pull their money, sit back, and wait for things to change.

I didn't find anything on the minimum wage earners specifically, but the study I found showed that the middle segment of the middle class (approx 20% of the population) will be paying about 50% more in federal taxes. Minimum wage earners don't pay taxes, anyhow. They typically get back more than they give. All part of the redistribution.

It frustrates me when Justin/ jrmmiii and Cheech say "go find facts", but its actually a good thing. I'm not going to convince them to be conservative, and they're not going to convince me to be liberal. Having to back up statements is not a bad thing. Thats not to say that I'm going to go pull sources on everything I post, but I may think twice before posting it. For example, I had a rant last week where I said something to the effect of "liberals want to save trees, but kill babies". Find a source? Not worth it, when its a recognized truth. I think its interesting (and sometimes maddening) to see how the other side thinks, whatever the "other side" may be. At least things are usually kept fairly civil.

Yep, if I was making 250,000 and I was taxed 4% higher, I would just shut down and stop working altogether. You want my mortgage payment? Ask the government, those fuckers have all my money anyway. Food for my kids? Here's some food stamps, go buy some vanilla ice cream. However, if my taxes were to go down, I'd have so much extra money with that additional 3% (out-of-ass number) I'd hire an army of workers! Some would sit around and do nothing, but what do I care? I'd also get a painting of me, no, TWO paintings of me commissioned! Job market's not going to fix itself, I have this extra 3% so I can create jobs for the little people!

[John]

LOL as if the top earners pay any taxes anyway. they are just like the big corporations. they bitch and bitch if their taxes get increased, but it does not really matter because they never paid their share to begin with.

they have their money squirreled away in offshore tax havens, or do some "creative bookkeeping" where their salary as president of their company is 12,000 a year, but you get to live in the company's mansion, drive the company bentley etc. use the company expense account...

[dorifto240]

However, thanks for having well-reasoned arguments. Doesn't that feel better than just throwing a bunch of on the screen?

It's no different than:

At the least, fear mongering leads to action.

Edited August 24, 2010 by dorifto240

[alab32]

No need, you already proved your argument false. I'm well aware that the income tax rate for middle class workers sucks seeing as I am one.

How is it exactly that he proved his argument false? That was 36.5% in Columbus... look at something like NYC. Taxes are out of control. You will hit close to 50% quick. Especially if you look at medicare, SS and such.

[Disclaimer]

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2367/are-u-s-taxes-low-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-industrialized-world

Haven't vetted the article or source, but according to that, US taxes on the whole are comparatively low.

Quitcherbitchin'

[alab32]

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2367/are-u-s-taxes-low-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-industrialized-world

Haven't vetted the article or source, but according to that, US taxes on the whole are comparatively low.

Quitcherbitchin'

Why are we comparing ourselves to ANY other country? We are the United States... The best country in the world and I compare my country to none other. I vote and pay taxes... thus I am free to complain all I want.

[Disclaimer]

Why are we comparing ourselves to ANY other country? We are the United States... The best country in the world and I compare my country to none other. I vote and pay taxes... thus I am free to complain all I want.

Do you even read what you write?

How do you know we're the best? Ohh, by COMPARING ourselves to the rest of the world. And lemme tell you before you take your rose colored glasses off -- we aren't the best in a lot of categories.

[dorifto240]

Yep, if I was making 250,000 and I was taxed 4% higher, I would just shut down and stop working altogether. You want my mortgage payment? Ask the government, those fuckers have all my money anyway. Food for my kids? Here's some food stamps, go buy some vanilla ice cream. However, if my taxes were to go down, I'd have so much extra money with that additional 3% (out-of-ass number) I'd hire an army of workers! Some would sit around and do nothing, but what do I care? I'd also get a painting of me, no, TWO paintings of me commissioned! Job market's not going to fix itself, I have this extra 3% so I can create jobs for the little people!

Wow, over react much? Accuse me of fear mongering...

[alab32]

Do you even read what you write?

How do you know we're the best? Ohh, by COMPARING ourselves to the rest of the world. And lemme tell you before you take your rose colored glasses off -- we aren't the best in a lot of categories.

Well then... go live somewhere that is the "best"... As a whole, we are the best by far! Am I saying everything is perfect here? Nope... never said that at all. But I know there is no where else I would rather live and there is no where better than where we are. But again... can we make it better? Of course.

And by saying I dont compare myself, I guess I should have been 100% perfectly clear so someone like you wouldnt come and say something stupid. I dont think I should say "well Europe has this so we should too!" Horse crap... We have what we have, lets make it even better. Sorry to confuse you...

[Disclaimer]

Your argument still makes no sense. "We are the best by far..." Says who? You? Who are you?

That's like saying the 600RR is the best bike ever built. And you sound just as smart when you defend the US as the best as you would if you would try that same argument with your bike.

[wrillo]

As much as I don't like it, I've got to go with cheech on this one. He just pwned the fuck out of you, and proved the bush tax cuts really don't effect most of the country. How many people here make more than $250,000? I will venture a guess and say, two, maybe three people. That would be our supporters that own businesses.

Low income conservatives arguing for bush tax cuts is just silly. The political bullshit in this country has become so high, that it has actually overpowered the human instinct of self interest. Amazing.

I like to consider myself a fiscal conservative, but its time to pay the piper. The federal government needs to do what all the local governments are doing: cut back, and raise taxes. While this doesn't sound like the typical theory of "fiscal conservatism" on the surface, it really is the way back to it. Thinking big picture, if we get the federal government to cut back on social programs, and focus on balancing a budget, we'll find ourselves in a time where the government CAN afford to lower taxes and not have to make sacrifices or fuck up the economy. (Sorry for that last, very long, run-on sentence)

[InyaAzz]

[Cheech]

Wow, over react much? Accuse me of fear mongering...

Time to fix your sarcasmometer. I suggest going to DucRx, they have all the necessary parts in stock.

[Cheech]

Well then... go live somewhere that is the "best"... As a whole, we are the best by far! Am I saying everything is perfect here? Nope... never said that at all. But I know there is no where else I would rather live and there is no where better than where we are. But again... can we make it better? Of course.

And by saying I dont compare myself, I guess I should have been 100% perfectly clear so someone like you wouldnt come and say something stupid. I dont think I should say "well Europe has this so we should too!" Horse crap... We have what we have, lets make it even better. Sorry to confuse you...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never spent any quality time outside the United States. You should probably change that before you make such blindingly jingoistic statements.