Whats holding you back

[Moto-Brian]

Also worth noting as I read these great responses:

- none of us are professionals. While I completely understand wanting (sometimes needing) to improve and the correlation between improving and having "fun," there are absolutely times where I have needed to literally pit in and take a break, because I was getting frustrated about my pace, rather than enjoying the fact that I'm at the track, and riding a sportbike at 140mph. Safety is priority #1, then fun, THEN pace.

- The faster you go, the less room there is for you to improve. We're talking about plateaus in improvement here, but sometimes it's important to remind yourself of how far you've already come. On my first trackday, I was a disaster. By the end of my third trackday, I was slow, but safe, and I was having a blast. By the end of my first season of riding (12+ track days), I had improved A TON, and moved up to Intermediate. It took me a lot more than 12 additional track days to get from Intermediate to Advanced, because the faster you go, the tougher it gets to shave time. On day 1, and through most of YEAR 1 at the track, I could drop 10 seconds a lap in a weekend. If I could do that now, I'd be at or below lap record pace at all the 'local' tracks... Improvement is measured in tenths of a second, and sometimes in far less tangible changes. One of my biggest accomplishments last year wasn't going that much faster, but stringing together 8 laps in a row within half a second of each other, and maintaining a decent pace for race distance.

I agree to a degree, but do not feel this is something that blankets everyone. I know of several people including myself that are not professional at this sport. Nobody other than if Larry Pegram on here can say that.

BUT, I will say that pace which sounds like to me you classify as ability and getting better, is something I place at the top. You can take safety out of the equation as if ANYONE comes to a track for anything feels they are going to roll in an unsafe and taking chances manner, they will soon be booted out. Safety is a given and is a must or you are in the wrong place.

So for me, pace rather, ability and getting better is top of my list and ranks above fun. I feel fun is a key ingredient of track days. I even had some fun at VMD racing Carr this year, but this shit is pretty serious and while I think you can have a shit eating grin on your face while on track, it shouldn't be looked at like fuzzy bunnies kind of fun and everyone is joking and riding around like tree huggers. You need this to be taken serious as the results of anything otherwise can be deadly. This ain't tennis where the possibility of death is pretty minimal. But, fun is what we all need to have or it is not worth doing.

The fun to me is in the pits, talking with others, teaching others and watching them get better. The off track stuff is so much fun and exciting to me even after almost 20 years doing this. But, on track, I have a smile on my face a lot, but when you look at the pics, I stay pretty focused.

[blue03636]

pole search

I think you do this way too much.

[madcat6183]

I think you do this way too much.

All day everyday. Its what I do.

[RidersDiscount]

#1 and #2 are issues that absolutely need resolved. You can worry about the family when in the pits and off the bike. It isn't being harsh nor cold natured. It's just that if you are worrying even a TINY bit about those things, this sport is done in milliseconds. It only takes that amount of time to save something or to ball it up.

#2 is an issue a lot of riders have. I love it when we see guys show to the track with bikes that have more gizmos and components than a top shelf AMA bike has only to see them running mid "I" pace. I think it is awesome to see anyone out there, but when fiddling with components and working with new stuff every time you go out, it is counter productive.

Look at it this way, you go to the track with a bunch of new goodies and what do you have to do on top of thinking about the track and your lines, speed, braking, etc? You have to worry about why the rear is bouncing under load or the front slapping under load, etc. Those things are fine if you have the experience to ride around them until you get in. But, for a newer rider or mid level rider, those are distractions the same as worrying about your wife and kids...

Regarding #2, I haven't touched any of the settings on my bike since I worked with Compton to setup my baseline. Even then, my "baseline" was pretty much setting sag and putting the clicks in based on experience with his past riders and off I went. I ride the bike with the impression that the components I have are able to meet and exceed my riding demands. Until I am pushing the current setting's capabilities, only then will I learn what adding 2 clicks of rebound in front, or dropping the rear 2mm will result in.

[Hoblick]

regarding better equipment (or Farkling the bike)

oh i know i do not need the best of the best stuff on my bike.

and i have definately gotten past caring if i break shit on the bike.

i know my road block is mental, because like i said i know i cannot out ride the bike or tires.

seat time is definitely what i need, and i think i need more instructions someone to give me some feedback on what im doing wrong or right. i want to progress like i said, but i want to make sure im forming GOOD habits, and improving.

my goal next year is to move into I group and work harder on every aspect.

i was told before with smoothness comes speed, and i know this could not be more true. i try to be as smooth as i can, but i know there is more improvement that can be made.

i know i can hold my lines, and my pace is good enough to be in I. I guess i just felt like i staying in novice would let me focus more on being smooth and working more on my technique. i guess i was just holding myself back.

Brian, i know i dont agree with alot of things you say, or how you approach alot of topics. But truth be told i respect alot of the riding advice you give everyone one here, you have the experience and knowledge, and ill never turn away from advice from someone who has that experience.

as for your thoughts on the mini, i do see your point, but i see alot of benefits from it as well as stated before. hell just experiencing racing for the first time was an advantage. i know its nowhere in the same realm of speed, but it shows you the experience at some level. looking for new lines through to pass, having to change your line up at any time.

ehh im getting off track.. lets stick to big bike stuff lol

[Moto-Brian]

regarding better equipment (or Farkling the bike)

oh i know i do not need the best of the best stuff on my bike.

and i have definately gotten past caring if i break shit on the bike.

i know my road block is mental, because like i said i know i cannot out ride the bike or tires.

seat time is definitely what i need, and i think i need more instructions someone to give me some feedback on what im doing wrong or right. i want to progress like i said, but i want to make sure im forming GOOD habits, and improving.

my goal next year is to move into I group and work harder on every aspect.

i was told before with smoothness comes speed, and i know this could not be more true. i try to be as smooth as i can, but i know there is more improvement that can be made.

i know i can hold my lines, and my pace is good enough to be in I. I guess i just felt like i staying in novice would let me focus more on being smooth and working more on my technique. i guess i was just holding myself back.

Brian, i know i dont agree with alot of things you say, or how you approach alot of topics. But truth be told i respect alot of the riding advice you give everyone one here, you have the experience and knowledge, and ill never turn away from advice from someone who has that experience.

as for your thoughts on the mini, i do see your point, but i see alot of benefits from it as well as stated before. hell just experiencing racing for the first time was an advantage. i know its nowhere in the same realm of speed, but it shows you the experience at some level. looking for new lines through to pass, having to change your line up at any time.

ehh im getting off track.. lets stick to big bike stuff lol

No, no.. I agree. Small bikes allow seat time and building skills. However, what I see a lot of are guys riding those primarily and big bikes on the side. This isn't good. It can be a tool and a learning device for sure. In addition to the big bike stuff.

However, the idea on the big bikes as a primary is that you cannot learn small and work big if you are an adult with experience. Smaller bikes as a step up tool is perfect for say, someone like my son.

He is 13. Has zero pavement experience. I have an NSR for him to learn on and we have been doing some minor parking lot stuff. We intend to ride CRP and get his basics down. Again, starting at zero...

Once we get that taken care of, my goal is to get an RS125 and do a conversion 65/85 motor in it so he has experience with the chassis size. We have a Honda RS125 now, but it is the big track bike. The thought is to give him a year of small track and NSR/RS125 conversion and move him into track days with the RS125. From there? We ill see.

But, if it were me, I would get zero from racing or running the NSR at CRP other than a fun factor. Sure, learning something like how to deal with the chassis, how to maintain a corner speed, etc. But, that translates very little to big bike application. I see guys slipping clutches on the two strokes. You do not do that on a big bike. I have raced an XR100 before the fad took place and we even won an endurance race on a stocker with 16s. But, the way we rode and the way the bike reacted, it was experience on two wheels, but it doesn't translate over to big bikes.

What does well to transfer is taking those 100s and flat tracking them on ice, dirt, slippery concrete, etc. Motard stuff does also help. Again, on a big bike, the controlling of the slide, the 4 stroke engine response to braking, clutch work, etc translates. The importance of drive OUT and controlled rapid braking into a turn all translate. Take that 100 you've got and get some circles in on a dirt track and you will get more from that than road racing it... Loose is good. It allows you to not OVER REACT to when the big bike gets loose.

As for agreeing on approach, what I say, etc. I am a "what you see is what you get" kind of guy. I will say what I type to your face even if it isn't the popular way to think. But, my number one objective is to get more people into this sport. I also have an objective to try and educate a lot of people as it is a sport that is VERY new to a lot of folks. That newness allows them to fall into things that are not the best options. My thought process is to save people time and effort and work on basics to improve. I want everyone to succeed. I want guys to get better.

There's nothing better than taking a friend or a guy and leading them around to show them the better line than what they are doing/using. They instantly drop their times and the looks on their faces are priceless.

OSUYR1 on here is one of my favorite guys to work with. He is very positive to work with. He and his buddy are smooth, passionate about the sport and I have seen improvement. But, no matter good or bad or whether they advance or get stuck, they are always smiling and willing to listen and learn. He is a great example of results from working at this. I watch him and listen to his throttle management and feel that at the end of this season, he quite possibly has improved more than I remember. That's what my goal is. I wanna help everyone.

Trust me, you will not find anyone more passionate about this sport than me. Not a single soul. It gets me on the wrong side of arguments at times and even the wrong side of what others think of me. But, I think there are more guys that like the way I do things and accept my passion of this sport...

[J_Copeland]

From my very limited track experience I can tell you that I always leave thinking I could have went much faster.

I'm not sure if it's from a lack of seat time or a total mis-trust on my suspension.

As far as suspension goes,I'm gonna get the forks and rear shock's looked at in the off season.

[LINK]

Some good advice here.

Thank you!

Ryan, thank you for asking about the exact same problems I have at the track, I could not have asked in a better way... you nailed my exact same thoughts/feelings about track riding...

I think that is where my addiction comes from, I always leave disappointed in myself for not riding better, and not having more confidence in the bike, and myself...I need to clear my mind, to much going on while out there, a big problem for me!!!

I know I need to loose some weight too, It does hamper me from getting my body where it should be on the bike, and of course it makes everything else harder for me than it needs to be out there too...

[OSUYZFR1]

OSUYR1 on here is one of my favorite guys to work with. He is very positive to work with. He and his buddy are smooth, passionate about the sport and I have seen improvement. But, no matter good or bad or whether they advance or get stuck, they are always smiling and willing to listen and learn. He is a great example of results from working at this. I watch him and listen to his throttle management and feel that at the end of this season, he quite possibly has improved more than I remember. That's what my goal is. I wanna help everyone.

Thanks man. Brad and I both really appreciate you working with us. Hoping to run 36's next yr so I'll be looking you up at the track.

Ryan, I know the thing I had to work on at first was being able to run hard the entire track. I would watch my videos and listen to the throttle be like 'WTF are you doing there'. I still think I'm leaving some time on the table from this but not like it was. Some of it was cardio related and I was just getting tired and being lazy. The rest of it was just not realizing I was even doing it. When you are on track you think you are flying. I needed to see the video to realize I really wasn't pushing that hard.

[Hoblick]

i need to make a conscious effort to get with someone who is experienced and can watch me. That way they can point out where i need improvements, and then i can set out to work on improving them.

So Brian.. maybe next summer ill catch you at mid o and we can fight each other to the death and then i can have you follow me around the track and give me some pointers.

[Revelstoker]

from progression of your riding skills on the track.

this question has came into my head quite a bit.

is it experience, fear, not taking advice, to little instructions, not comfortable, no trust of the machine, lack of confidence?

i know my firs time on the track i was overwhelmed, very uncomfortable, and just didnt trust the grip of the tires, or the capability of the bike, of course i didnt really trust my capability either.

coming to the realization that i couldnt outride the bike or tires lol i started to progress, and took any advice i could. i kept in novice, i wanted to learn as much as i could, and not get in any more experienced riders way of enjoying a track day.

now i think i have done 5 or so track days now. havent moved out of novice.

i feel like i have improved leaps since the first time on the track, and i have learned alot of stuff that i apply to street riding to make me a safer, more predictable rider, as well as a bit faster.

but i think i have hit sort of a wall at the track. i know i can go faster, brake later, carry more corner speed, etc. There is just something in me not letting me take that leap of faith. the last track day i did my pace was faster than it was before, but i wanted it to be quicker, i would push myself to pick the pace up.. but then i caught myself scrubbing speed off when i probably didnt need to.

i really need to pinpoint what it is thats holding me back. I tink some of it is fear of getting hurt.. if i get hurt bad enough it would impact my life pretty badly. but i dont think thats the whole reason.

Since doing the mini racing at CRP, i think it has helped with confidence in the machine part even more. I mean your riding on tiny ass tires, and you dont think there is alot of grip available, but there is way more than you think, and you get a chance to feel the limit without alot of consequences. also riding the minis has helped me with trying to hold as much corner speed as i can.. cause with the little 100 motor, if you loose any momentum you notice it right away as the guy in front of you pulls away on an identical bike.

even at the mini races though i know i can improve a lot, but i really want to become a better, smoother, more confident rider so i can enjoy track days even more. i want to pick my pace up, and id love to eventually race Motoseries or WERA, but im not gonna go out there not feeling comfortable and confident.

so lay out some sweet sweet advice for me.

and anyone else have this feeling?

HUH? Given the Multi video and other posts, I thought you were an A rider running 1:06s at Mid-Ohio?

[Hoblick]

HUH? Given the Multi video and other posts, I thought you were an A rider running 1:06s at Mid-Ohio?

whaaaaaaaa

i probably dont give myself as much credit as i should, but im no A rider.

i have never had anyone evaluate me, aside from a few CRs who said, "your lines look good, your body position looks good.. keep it up" which really does me no good to help improving

[Pokey]

Spending more money and my wife completely cutting me off from sex if I were to start doing this, that is what holds me back.

[Hoblick]

Spending more money and my wife completely cutting me off from sex if I were to start doing this, that is what holds me back.

hahahaha

[Pokey]

Oh.....and since I trashed my shoulder riding off-road with Swingset, and I have now missed 3 weeks of work since surgery, my lady is really worried about me riding anywhere other than on-road. That looks like so much fun, would love to do that.

[Tpoppa]

Whats holding you back

the man.

[Revelstoker]

Spending more money and my wife completely cutting me off from sex if I were to start doing this, that is what holds me back.

By all means, keep riding the wife. She will eventually cut you off and then you can bike all the bike parts and track days that you want because it has no implications on booty time.

[Revelstoker]

i have never had anyone evaluate me, aside from a few CRs who said, "your lines look good, your body position looks good.. keep it up" which really does me no good to help improving

Ditto. I have asked for help and recieved it but not a whole lot more input or analysis that what you said. Almost word for word.

As such, I am thinking of Code school at Barber or one of the other schools. Intermediate sessions with class room, critical critique would be welcome. To the point of just an intermediate day that would be broken into slow, med and fast groups.

Focus on BP, braking, countersteering, passing theory and some of those elements that Brian mentions.

Personal holdback:

1) seat time due to family commmitments

2) not knowing the limits and fear of pushing too hard to find them.

(actually lost the front in T4 at Putnam and had a nice slide and tumble. Tire issue I believe so not too much wind out of my sails)

3) don't give a rats ass about lap times = not aggressive

4) technical issues (not weighting front end enough, counter steer, BP)

5) tendency to weight handle bars = out of physical shape

6) bad lower back which makes trunk strengthening hard to impossible

7) not committing and looking through the corner as a function of not setting up for X, Y, Z corners correctly

8) chasing the guy in front of me, not concentrating on myself.

....

[Hoblick]

id love to do a Code school.. that would just be awesome!

[Hoblick]

just looked at the cost for the 2 day camp.. $2450 holy crap!!

bet it would be totaly worth it though

[Revelstoker]

just looked at the cost for the 2 day camp.. $2450 holy crap!!

bet it would be totaly worth it though

$490 or something per day, on your own bike. That is the one I am interested and I don't want to spend a whole day readjusting, learning or being freaked out about the speed of a S1RR or the thought of paying for it if I drop it.

Location Type CostYour Bike/Our Bike

Jun1 Barber Motorsports Park All Levels 490/690

Jun 2 Barber Motorsports Park All Levels 490/690

Edited November 1, 2012 by Revelstoker

[Hoblick]

Does the class time/ teaching differ beyween a per day and the camp?

[Revelstoker]

Does the class time/ teaching differ beyween a per day and the camp?

Not sure. I also want to know if I sign up for both weekend days, is that the equivalent of their two day school. I guess Code has a 4 step program and I would hope the second day is not a repeat of the first day.

The only thing that I have read or heard (I have not confirmed) is that you don't get to use the skid or lean bikes unless you do the full two day school on their bikes.

I want to use the lean bike as I just want to experience how far one can go over in a controlled environment.

I finally got comfortable enough on my bike this year enough to think I might benefit. The Pridmore school at M-O was tempting but the weekend just didn't work out and my bike wasn't put back together from my Putnam mishap. The two up ride seems like it would be worth the price of admission. Though, the clean up post ride may not be fun.

[r1crusher]

Fear and common sense....

....along with a lack of HJ's from John.

But in all seriousness, I think most of the basic stuff I have down and don't have to concentrate a lot on body, setup, etc. This leaves me free to work on later braking, better throttle management, etc. I try to not think about anything outside of the track once I get on it. Moving to the gixxer has helped me be more confident along with a tire brand change. I find that now I need someone just faster than myself to follow or I just wind up doing the same times over and over. Some times I'll look for someone that carries more corner speed than I do but that I can stay with and try to follow them. Instructors are busy dealing with novice or less advanced riders so it's hard to find someone you can hook up with consistently and work with...as I said in another thread.

[The Murse]

My focus this year is to get more consistent and more fluid, which will hopefully, as a result drop my times (making me more competitive). I have been able to move on from my big wreck (ass packing) and the following race I did pretty well given it was my first actual completed race.

I was also racing 1000 superbike but I just don't have the speed to keep up with the experts. I am able to stay out front of the novices which leaves me in a bubble on the track where I ride alone and I don't think this is helpful.

I think this year, I may scrap the superbike race and move to 1000GT and see what that has to offer and continue to do the mini20. I don't expect to compete with Agnes, Peters, or Brian anytime too soon but I am hoping I can dice with some of the pack.

I have always been pretty good and focusing at the task at hand when the visor goes down but I need to get better . As noted by several others, I need to focus on sections of the track and then piecing it all together. Too much of the time I am just chasing lap times or dicing with other members of the forum (which is a blast and to some degree helpful).

I need to work on many aspects, especially getting myself to break later and get back on the gas sooner and more smoothly.

I need to get my lanky ass off the bike more and I need to start asking for more help from the veterans.

Last but not least, I need to make it to a lot more rounds this year (screw working every other weekend, seriously cuts into the fun.)