Mid Ohio 6-22 (twilight) and 6-23

[RHill]

To be honest with you, I've had just as many close calls in advanced with slower riders as I had in intermediate. I didn't move to A until I could run 43s consistently so when I made the move I was already mid pack. There are plenty of I guys running under 45s to chase and learn from. I found I got faster by following someone just a little bit faster than me and getting used to that speed. I still try to do that. I couldn't learn anything from someone that blows by and i can't see after two corners.

 

I've only done 1 intermediate, 1 twilight and 1 advance day last year....then Tuesday in advanced.  I'm a little slow for the advanced group, but I'm still picking up time and I do it much faster without a leader/traffic.  The one instructor tried to give me a tow in the second session Tuesday, but I get so cautious around other riders I can't push my pace.  Like Code says you only have 100% concentration or whatever....when another rider comes around it takes the % away that I need to push my comfort limit.  Once I've established my own lap, I can run in close with other riders at pace comfortably. 

 

I've watched my rear camera and I don't see the issue being out there turning 47-46's(in the morning)...all the passes that were put on me were quick and clean.  Only time I saw someone held up for more than a turn was in the esses, but I like to think I run a decent pace through there.  With that being said, I think I would have dropped a consistent 2 seconds or more if the weather held.  Still pissed the dog caused a red flag for our last good weather session.

[aforrest4]

All I know is that I'll be holding down the tail end of novice!

 

No Novice on a Twilight.

Twilights are just for experienced Intermediate and Advanced.

This is because they both are allowed out at the same time.

But you can come on Monday.

[rusty]

I'm just asking not whining what the rules state......  when I went to one twilight event two years ago on a Motard and past half the intermediate group even with a slow 127mph straightway speed......so a simple yes or no answer is all you need with me.....are motards welcome at twilight event???  Just looking for a little track time before WERA races so a full day event is fine with me too

Motard is not allowed in twilight,just got that confirm from our boss.

The speed differential is too big.

[oldschoolsdime92]

No Novice on a Twilight.

Twilights are just for experienced Intermediate and Advanced.

This is because they both are allowed out at the same time.

But you can come on Monday.

No intentions of being there for twilight. I'm coming Monday.

[LINK]

So a "Twilight" at Mid-Ohio is actually a race (so much for the speech), that caters to the fastest riders?

 

Spin it however you want, hard to read any differently!

[aforrest4]

So a "Twilight" at Mid-Ohio is actually a race (so much for the speech), that caters to the fastest riders?

 

Spin it however you want, hard to read any differently!

 

Absolutely not!

It is a safety issue.

The track is open from about 4:30 pm to Dusk.

To maximize track time, everyone gets to run as much as they want during that time.

It would be irresponsible to allow too large a skill difference on the track at the same time.

Allowing Novice, and lesser experienced Intermediate riders out on the track the same time as Advanced riders would endanger everyone involved. 

Yet the Advanced riders with racing experience, will still ride & pass others with a Track Day mindset.

Racing passes are unacceptable! 

The passing rules for a Twilight are the same as an intermediate session. 

This is due to there still being a large skill difference between an good advanced rider and a fast intermediate rider.

Make sense?

[Chuck Clay]

I'm starting to think with close passing unacceptable....some call it race passing......that maybe i'll just wait for WERA weekend

Kind of why ive been staying away from mid-ohio.....I think some of the same riders there were whinning last year about close passes at Putnam

 

Thanks for information........ nice to know these thing ahead of time

[rusty]

The problem is less and less experience riders go to higher level then are they skills,and then they complain ,somebody ride too close,somebody pass them inside,and the rules getting change for the majority,which is not right.

At twilight use to be advance rules, it was lot more fast and fun,then more ,and more slow intermediate riders start come,they where not comfortable with inside passing ,so the rules where change to intermediate.how is that fair to the fast guys??If you want play with fast guys shut up and try keep up ,or stay home and don't complain.

In few weeks are AMA vintage,Wera,AMA pro races,which means more and more pro or club racers come practice.that don't mean track day become race,just the pace is lot more faster.if you at finish line and another rider is about turn to turn one,and you still running in to him in middle in the turn that's where is getting dangerous ,because you don't expect that,he should be long time ago gone,the closing speed is so different,which shouldn't be,you make inside pass ,then he complain he got pass too close.

For the motard ,at smaller tracks the top speed is not that big difference,but at midohio it is.if you go at back straight 127 ,600s go 160s,1000s go 176and up.

Chuck are you the guy who run the motard at Putnam with motoseries ?

[mojocho]

Rusty, the problem with your comments is that it gives the impression that the day is all about "A" boys. There are so many limited days on the weekends. Now you throw out this rule about sending people home of they are too slow?! And make comments about it used to be more fun when it was "A" rules. Fun for who? You? But not the "I". If i was sent home I'd demand a full refund. There is nothing in the rules about minimum times. How do you objectively determine if an " I" is experienced enough?

So tell me when a slow " I" can have a track day on the weekend. Another reason why I haven't gone to MO in a while. They just don't give a shit about M/C riders... That's my perception. Reading your posts just confirms it.

I'll drive to Grattan or Gingerman and spend my money there.

[lowcel]

I'm starting to think with close passing unacceptable....some call it race passing......that maybe i'll just wait for WERA weekend

Kind of why ive been staying away from mid-ohio.....I think some of the same riders there were whinning last year about close passes at Putnam

 

Thanks for information........ nice to know these thing ahead of time

 

 

Rusty, the problem with your comments is that it gives the impression that the day is all about "A" boys. There are so many limited days on the weekends. Now you throw out this rule about sending people home of they are too slow?! And make comments about it used to be more fun when it was "A" rules. Fun for who? You? But not the "I". If i was sent home I'd demand a full refund. There is nothing in the rules about minimum times. How do you objectively determine if an " I" is experienced enough?

So tell me when a slow " I" can have a track day on the weekend. Another reason why I haven't gone to MO in a while. They just don't give a shit about M/C riders... That's my perception. Reading your posts just confirms it.

I'll drive to Grattan or Gingerman and spend my money there.

 

I have been to Mid-Ohio for six days so far this year (this is my first year) and I can promise you this attitude is not at all common among those associated with the track.  I have not even seen this type of attitude from anyone not associated with PTR.  Everyone that I have spoken with at the track have been nothing but helpful and encouraging.  Please don't miss out on an awesome track, amazing people, and an incredible organization based on this one thread.  This really is the first time I have seen this kind of attitude from someone affiliated with PTR.

[Chuck Clay]

Yes Rusty, I was the one at Putnam.......I chatted with ya there

 

I know Mid-Ohio is bad for Motards because of the long downhill straight.........

 

I hear the word "fair" being used......so is it fair that the "I" rider on a 600 parks it in the corners after blowing by me on the straight and cry's when I pass him and 7 others in thunder valley on the outside, then say I was too close.

 

I thought you said at Putnam if you don't like being pass close goto Novice group???? please explain what I thought you told me.........I'm too old to hit the pavement and get up, so unsafe passes don't interest me one bit,  close passes and unsafe passes are not the same to me.

[Chuck Clay]

When I find myself starting to getting grouchy it's using because I'm not getting any!!! LOL

[Moto-Brian]

Just to reminder twilight is for experience intermediate and advance only.1:47 is not really fast times for twilight.if you not in pace we can send you home without refund.

 

 

1:47 is fine.  It isn't about the speed as much as predictability and consistency.  But, it is for only experienced Intermediate and Advanced riders.  Advanced riders - it will be Intermediate passing rules.  Point is this.  If you are in the 1:47 and riding like a beginning Intermediate rider, you will be pulled for safety reasons.  If you run a 1:47 and are on a slower machine and riding with consistent and predictable lines, you will be more than fine. 

 

And if this is the case, no refund is not the decision of Rusty.  It is the decision of the track director.  So, the idea is simple.  If you are a new Intermediate rider, I would suggest getting a few more under your belt.  If you've ridden a few or more Intermediate group events and are comfortable with potentially faster passes and speeds, this will be fine.

 

Finally, the secret is timing.  Typically, everyone rides immediately and as the twilight progresses, the amount of riders out at one time gets thinner and thinner.

[Moto-Brian]

1:49 is 1st novice group pace.to twilight come pro,and club racers.we all run together ,if the top riders run1:30-35s ,and you 1:47 and up ,it become safety issue.how intermediate riders like if 10 novice riders go to intermediate ,they complaint they shoulnd be there,right?

Put your egos aside if you not in pace come to regular track day.

Twilight is for advance and intermediate who's about go to advance,if you on bottom intermediate ,simple ger faster.

I'm not saying there is not people who are slow,but every twilight people complaint about the riders who are way off pace,and they mad at us why we not enforsing the rules.last 2 track days in advance we had 6 AMA pro riders,who knows how many coming practice Sunday.

Its fine You can hold line ,but when the slow guys bunch up together and it's 5-9 guys behind each other, typical for intermediate level,and they run 1:47-1:50 then you ruining the track time for the faster guys.yes they pass you ,and when you give them no option but do it inside then people complaint no inside passing.

This is not targeted to anybody personally,

 

 

Rusty - please refrain from discussing this situation and scaring customers.  This is insane.  The first level novices may break the 1:50s.  BUT, I can promise they cannot do it consistently and in traffic.  I as a part time race director will promise anyone on here that they will NOT be sent home unless you are erratic, inconsistent and unpredictable.  Come see me or Todd Snyder if concerns or you have a coach hammering you on this.  Now, if the fact is that you are any of these issues other than speed, yes.  We may send you home or ask you to pull out and we will discuss refund if applicable.

 

DO NOT USE A LAP TIME AS A MEASURING STICK.  We evaluate in terms of ability and progress as a rider.  An average Advanced rider is riding at 1:38-:40-ish pace.  1:47-1:50 is fine if you can be these things I describe.  Remember - as an advanced rider, you should have the ability to pass safely even slower riders.

 

Now, you enter Advanced and run 1:49s or 1:47s, we may bump you down to Intermediate in the regular days that we run. 

 

And, the comment of ruining faster riders' track days is pure snob and will not be tolerated.  This is a track day.  Not race practice.  I have yet to have a track day ruined by a slower pack of riders.  Reason being is I am capable of passing them and moving along. 

Edited June 14, 2014 by Desmo-Brian

[Moto-Brian]

Damn, guess I'm going to drop back to novice then.  Thank you.

 

 

No. No you will not.  Come play and come by and see me.  I will be the #10 Ducati 1199.  I will help in any way I can.  We all start somewhere and some of us (Even coaches) aren't as fast as we tell others to be.  This is a very bad thread and not representative of the event.  Please come.  But, do consider the ability to be smooth, consistent and predictable.  Be honest and be fair.  Leave the ego behind and just make sure that you are not a first time Intermediate rider and have a few under your belt.  The idea is that we need those things for everyone's safety.  Trust me when I say it is a challenge at EVERY track day.  But if you self evaluate, I am sure you will be fine.  Come play!

[Moto-Brian]

I'm just asking not whining what the rules state......  when I went to one twilight event two years ago on a Motard and past half the intermediate group even with a slow 127mph straightway speed......so a simple yes or no answer is all you need with me.....are motards welcome at twilight event???  Just looking for a little track time before WERA races so a full day event is fine with me too

 

 

That's a tougher call.  The difference in speeds makes it tough.  At that stage, it is a deal where I would suggest that you give at least 6' on both sides everywhere around the track.  Don't apex the kink for example on the back straight.  Stay in the middle.  The issue is closing speeds and even for advanced riders, that can be tough if such a high differential.  I have seen PLENTY of motards out there for these events.

 

Twilights are more geared to Intermediate riders with experienced than Advanced riders.  As mention by OSU, we have plenty of slower than 1:45 in Advanced.  But, they are smooth, capable and predictable.  That's what we need.  I cannot be passing a guy that is making three apexes out of the Keyhole for example...  That would constitute a potential move down.

 

Also consider this.  You may be slower and EVEN A LITTLE IN CONSISTENT.  But, if a coach sees this and instead of blasting you and yelling at you, but takes you out and works with you and you get consistent, guess what?  You were ready and just needed a little help.

 

Bottom line is this.  If you feel you may be on the edge in YOUR MIND, come anyways.  Then, make it a point to get with a coach and we will help you out.  Simple.  You aren't going to learn anything all alone and on your own.  Yes, we all start somewhere.  But it is the people along the way that help that make us better or not. 

 

COME UP TO THE TWILIGHT!!!

[lowcel]

No. No you will not.  Come play and come by and see me.  I will be the #10 Ducati 1199.  I will help in any way I can.  We all start somewhere and some of us (Even coaches) aren't as fast as we tell others to be.  This is a very bad thread and not representative of the event.  Please come.  But, do consider the ability to be smooth, consistent and predictable.  Be honest and be fair.  Leave the ego behind and just make sure that you are not a first time Intermediate rider and have a few under your belt.  The idea is that we need those things for everyone's safety.  Trust me when I say it is a challenge at EVERY track day.  But if you self evaluate, I am sure you will be fine.  Come play!

 

As I posted above, everyone that I have had the pleasure of dealing with at Mid-Ohio have been awesome.  I even wrote a nice review about it a while back that I heard was e-mailed to everyone.  I still feel the exact same way.  I have nothing but nice things to say about Mid-Ohio and all of the workers / volunteers.

 

http://ohioriders.net/index.php?/topic/104555-two-days-at-mid-ohio/

[Moto-Brian]

Motard is not allowed in twilight,just got that confirm from our boss.

The speed differential is too big.

 

 

This isn't correct again, Rusty.  There are plenty of motard riders out there that I know would probably give you a threat.  The status of that motard and that rider is what we use to evaluate.  A blanket "NO" is not correct.  It is a tough call.  A 450 just isn't going to have the top speed, but we had a Hypermotard only running a buck-twenty and he was running faster than most.  So, the answer is to call and ask or to ask here in a PM to me and I will talk to Todd. 

 

I can promise that I can run my Hypermotard almost as fast as you can run that well prepped racebike.  Does that mean you should bump down to Intermediate?

 

Please stop on here and let's have the guys show and we can discuss.  Or if they do not want to waste the time of travel, PM me offline and I will discuss.  I will give you my phone number and we can talk.  There are plenty of "motards" out there that can handle it.

[Moto-Brian]

I'm starting to think with close passing unacceptable....some call it race passing......that maybe i'll just wait for WERA weekend

Kind of why ive been staying away from mid-ohio.....I think some of the same riders there were whinning last year about close passes at Putnam

 

Thanks for information........ nice to know these thing ahead of time

 

 

6' rule in Intermediate and 3' in Advanced.  Typical of every track day company out there.  Inside passes and the like allowed in Advanced.  If people complain, it is usually because they are not used to it.  But, if an instructor says it was close, it probably was.  Point is this.  If you are well educated, have decent ability and can be patient, you can pass when possible cleanly.  WERA race practice is exactly that.  RACE practice.  These are track days.  Plenty of top shelf AMA guys at our track days and they do just fine.

[Moto-Brian]

Rusty, the problem with your comments is that it gives the impression that the day is all about "A" boys. There are so many limited days on the weekends. Now you throw out this rule about sending people home of they are too slow?! And make comments about it used to be more fun when it was "A" rules. Fun for who? You? But not the "I". If i was sent home I'd demand a full refund. There is nothing in the rules about minimum times. How do you objectively determine if an " I" is experienced enough?

So tell me when a slow " I" can have a track day on the weekend. Another reason why I haven't gone to MO in a while. They just don't give a shit about M/C riders... That's my perception. Reading your posts just confirms it.

I'll drive to Grattan or Gingerman and spend my money there.

 

 

Come to our track days.  It's a hoot.  Rusty's comments are out of line and are not the norm with us all.  We are here to help and these are track days.  If Rusty thinks more and more slower guys come and have not made it fun, he is being arrogant and really has no business out there.  This is a fun day and a fun time.  What is really cool is that you do get to ride with faster riders and potentially learn a bit. 

 

These comments that have been made worry me and even the director.  Trust me when I say that we welcome everyone.  Yes, we have some rules and guidelines.  But they are totally acceptable and easy to understand.  The issue here is that you are correct when saying it has been painted to be more and more of an "A" group and that is not true.  These have always included the Intermediate guys and that's what is so cool. 

 

Are there issues out there each track day?  Yes.  Is there issues in the groups during a normal track day?  Yes.  No matter what, there is going to be someone that feels they wasted their time because they didn't get clean laps or get race practice.  For those guys?  They call it WERA.  CCS.  ASRA.  AMA.  That's where you can run as fast as you want and do whatever you need to in order to get your aggression out.  This is a track day and managed as such.

 

We want to help.  There is nothing more awesome to me when I can take a guy and show him some secrets or the proper line and he is amped to see his lap times drop and increase his comfort level because he is running the most efficient line around the track.  That's what "COACHES/INSTRUCTORS" are out there for.  The ones that say to stay home?  Find someone else to help you out.  It will be much more rewarding and more in line with the perception and management of the PTR events and the staff involved.

[Moto-Brian]

As I posted above, everyone that I have had the pleasure of dealing with at Mid-Ohio have been awesome.  I even wrote a nice review about it a while back that I heard was e-mailed to everyone.  I still feel the exact same way.  I have nothing but nice things to say about Mid-Ohio and all of the workers / volunteers.

 

http://ohioriders.net/index.php?/topic/104555-two-days-at-mid-ohio/

 

 

Awesome and exactly as stated.  A majority feel the way the staff you interacted with do.  This is why everyone should come.  Understand the guidelines and understand the rules.  If you feel you fit?  COME OUT AND PLAY!  If you feel unsure?  Sign up and come up so we can help you over the hump.  Or, PM me and I will give you my number to discuss.  Simple as that.

 

We have open arms and welcome everyone.  Even Novice riders to come and hang and see what it is all about.  We do not accept Novice and 1st time Intermediate riders for the safety issue, but I am sure you can all agree that it is due to the issues I explained and not all about the lap time...

[rusty]

This isn't correct again, Rusty.  There are plenty of motard riders out there that I know would probably give you a threat.  The status of that motard and that rider is what we use to evaluate.  A blanket "NO" is not correct.  It is a tough call.  A 450 just isn't going to have the top speed, but we had a Hypermotard only running a buck-twenty and he was running faster than most.  So, the answer is to call and ask or to ask here in a PM to me and I will talk to Todd. 

 

I can promise that I can run my Hypermotard almost as fast as you can run that well prepped racebike.  Does that mean you should bump down to Intermediate?

 

Please stop on here and let's have the guys show and we can discuss.  Or if they do not want to waste the time of travel, PM me offline and I will discuss.  I will give you my phone number and we can talk.  There are plenty of "motards" out there that can handle it.

I personally ask Todd Snyder yesterday,he told me no motards at twilight.just passing what I been told

[lowcel]

Awesome and exactly as stated.  A majority feel the way the staff you interacted with do.  This is why everyone should come.  Understand the guidelines and understand the rules.  If you feel you fit?  COME OUT AND PLAY!  If you feel unsure?  Sign up and come up so we can help you over the hump.  Or, PM me and I will give you my number to discuss.  Simple as that.

 

We have open arms and welcome everyone.  Even Novice riders to come and hang and see what it is all about.  We do not accept Novice and 1st time Intermediate riders for the safety issue, but I am sure you can all agree that it is due to the issues I explained and not all about the lap time...

 

I went early a few weeks back so I could watch and take photos of the twilight and I had a great time.  If I'm not ready to ride the twilight I am fine with that.  I'll still have a good time hanging out and riding the next day.  I can certainly understand the reasoning behind not wanting less fast (I've been told the word slow is a dirty word) intermediate riders don't need to be out there.  Hopefully one of these days I won't have to worry about it.  

[mojocho]

Well I'm glad you cleared that up Brian. Honestly I don't care if I go faster. I just want to be smoother and learn things and ring out my bike where I can't on the street. I've done over a dozen intermediate track days but have no delusions that I'm faster than i am. I have no aspirations to race. I don't even know my time because i don't own nor want to own a lap timer. But I'm ok with that. I get to hang with friends for a weekend. Bench race and tell tall stories of imaginary conquests.

Unfortunately it doesn't change the fact that there are not any full weekends at MO other than the one in may or April. It takes me a while to get into the groove at a track. By the time I'd be comfortable dusk would settle in. I'm sure Rusty's opinion about twilight days are not unique. I wouldn't want to hold any one up.

Ideally MO would have Friday twilights with full regular days on Sat and Sun. I'd pay a premium for that schedule.

Edited June 14, 2014 by mojocho

[rusty]

I meant on this thread what Brian stated,sorry if my words choice come up little ignorant,and harsh.people who know me ,know I mean well,and I try help anybody at any level at track.