rl

Regardless of ANYTHING there is a physical limit to the amount of cylinder pressure that the stock pistons/rods/block can handle. You are far past that already. Will it handle 600rwhp? Yes, Maybe for one pull on the dyno, maybe for 6,000 miles, but it WILL break. Not to many vortech guys make 500rwhp with stock short blocks. Many with stock BLOCKS, but they have nice rotating assemblies. Low end torque is an issue as well. I wager to say we see some modular turbo cars with destroyed bottom ends due to the low end torque from turbo set-ups.

 

I'd sell the 42's and the 36's and get some high impedance 55's if I where you. Throw some sn95 fuel rails on, and a walbo 255lph hi-pressure pump and you'll be good to go.

 

IMHO, don't break the car. Drive it at 500rwhp, build a REAL motor and go from there. Shooting for 600rwhp could cause serious damage if something lets go (cracked block = cracked transmission in many cases, not to mention cylinder head damage)

FYI, we are up and running, we can do chips for all EEC IV and EEC V Fords, in a few weeks we will have flashers and multiple position chips.

 

We do dynotuning, roadtuning and mail-order (our mail-order chips will be closer than most aftermarket companies chips due to the extensive database that SCT offers us from the literally thousands of cars that they have dynotuned).

 

We are based out of Delaware, Ohio, so we are local to Columbus. smile.gif

 

If you have a question, ask us. We can do anything from mild to wild.

 

Check out our site for more information and pricing details.

 

 

www.lasotaracing.com

 

 

Rob

Originally posted by iwishiwascool:

With a turbo car, especially a 4 cyl, i would choose a wet kit 9 out of 10 times. The nitrous backfire risk is always going to be there, but how common is it really. Its not that challenging to take precautions against it.

 

In a turbo system you are already dealing with elevated cylinder pressures, by taking away the even distribution assurance of a direct port kit, you are risking running an uneven load in each cylinder. Each cylinder is however still each getting x amt of fuel. x amt of fuel might not be enough if 20% more nitrous goes into the first available cylinder.

 

Additionally, by relying on your injectors to react so quickly to both the onset of boost AND the introduction of nitrous you face the risk of over running them without being able to compensate in time to avoid replacing your block.

 

It comes down to nitrous backfire = replace intake mani.

 

Injector overload/uneven distribution = replace block

 

I choose the first.

Backfires can be fairly common (you cant do a thing to protect against sticking solenoids, or what if he bogs launching?). You'd be replacing more than just the intake if it was a bad backfire, especially on a non-intercooled application (It could easily destroy the turbo). Uneven distribution can be just as great with a single fogger as with a single dry nozzle, thats not even an issue.

 

I am NOT a fan of filling long runner intakes with air/fuel, they are not designed to handle fuel. A direct port system would be a entirely different thing, but I assume he would use a single fogger nozzle.

 

You can tune for a dry shot, its not that hard, and the risk of a backfire goes WAY down.

 

But IMHO using nitrous to spool a turbo on an application such as this is a bad idea in the first place. Design the system correctly and it should spool just fine.

FWIW, using a wet kit is not the best idea ever. A backfire is not a good thing on a turbo car.

M&M Head service in Delaware. The best, period. Mike kicks all sorts of ass.

You have PM. smile.gif

I'd use a MLS head gasket for sure. With a copper head gasket you have to use a hylomar sealer, and even then seepage can be an issue.

 

You don't have to o-ring the block with a copper HG, however re-torquing the head bolts frequently is not a bad idea.

 

When you have the block and heads machined, check with Cometic and see what they recommend the RA to be (the roughness of the metal) and have the machine shop machine the mating surfaces to that RA.

 

 

Rob

Thats a horrible, horrible design. You'd be better off with a turbo, it would be CHEAPER.

The do heads/stock cam/intake and a turbo.

 

Something like mildly ported AFR 165's, a performer intake and fabricate a single turbo setup(like a 62-1). For fuel system just get a 255lph hp pump, 42# injectors and a pro-m univer meter (assuming that you are going to run an intercooler, and be somewhat forced into running a blowthrough due to that. You could run a draw-through but with 4' of intake pipe the delay of reading could cause idle issues that couldn't be tuned out. You cant tune out hardware issues.) Then a dynotune.

 

The stock shortblock will be on the edge, but with a good tune it should be safe (for a while anyway). Same with the rest of the driveline, the T5 will eat itself, so will the rear end.

 

You do have a million other options, however that is the route I would take.

I had a nice long detailed reply typed up, but the board got closed while I was typing it, so it went away. I'll post when I have more time tomorrow at work.

Have you ever had the block line honed or at least checked for true?

 

Nick, check your messages sucka.

M&M head service in Delaware. Mike is the best around, especially with Ford stuff. smile.gif

Originally posted by cdk 4219:

When we pulled timing the car would fall on its ass, I think he may have bumped the timing 2*. How are your dyno #s looking?

Havent had it on a dyno, I just finished the install last week, the motor has 600 miles on it and leaks a SHITLOAD of oil (THANKS PASSEN!) which is getting fixed next week, then its dyno time. smile.gif

 

When I was pulling 1.5* it would fall straight on its face, 1* it pulls, but it feels like its bogging a bit.

Originally posted by cdk 4219:

I assume BTM is boost timing master, in which case yes it has an MSD. We have yet to retard the timing from stock position though. With 8 to 1 J&E pistons ans well as balanced assembly, and ported head it seems to work well. He actually has the car up for sale for $8500 if anybody is interested. Mail him at wpostle@ds.net his name is Paul

I have it pulling 1/2* per lb right now, he has JE pistons, rods etc etc so on the dyno I might add some more timing. It wasnt detonating at all right now, which is good smile.gif

Originally posted by cdk 4219:

Teh MP2 doesnt even have adjustability under 3000 rpm if I remember correctly, so if you were having idle problems then either one of the injectors is not closing, or there is something wrong with the stock Honda devices. Have you checked the MAP, or is the check engine light on? I know that once a Honda map sees boost then it doesnt work right. We finally had to put 7 check valves in the missing link to correct for running rich, stalling after boost, aas well as stumble when stabbing the throttle. Every time the engine boosted th echeck engine light came on because of the map sensor. Good luck! I was very pleased with the final drivability of the car after these issues were addressed, and the power is at 305 to the wheels at 10 PSI.

No check engine light, it happened once, I cleaned the missing link and never again. If we continue to have issues I'll add in check valves. Ultimately the MP2 is going to come off of the car, it is NOT a good design. I'm going to have him get large injectors and the injector harness for the E-manage. IMHO, that's the CORRECT way to do it.

 

What's odd is to keep it safe down low, I have what would seem like a lot of fuel added through the mp2 at low RPM, but its going way RICH up top (like 11.0:1) with like 1/8th turn LESS than what's down low.

 

 

Right now driveability is GREAT, it doesn't hesitate or stumble at all, and most of the time it doesn't die when lifting in full boost. Maybe I'll add some check valves and see what happens.

 

Did the car you did have a BTM or similar on it?

 

The idle with this car was worse PRE-turbo then it was when I gave it back. When he gave me the car straight from passen it wouldn't idle for more than a minute or two (it had like a 10.0:1 AFR at idle) and it would die EVERY time you took your foot off the gas while driving it. It has cams in it, but something else was going on.

 

What's kind of odd is the fuel pump cycles continuously while you have the key on, every 15 seconds or so the fuel pump kicks on (engine off key on).

Originally posted by cdk 4219:

What did you guys do to bleed the pressure off of the map sensor? If you dont have enough check valves in the "missing link" the map will recieve boost and this sounds like the problem. My buddy has an H23 T3-T4 and I had the same problems with the idle and drivability, exactly the same, but it is great now with that simple fix. I like the MP2 for its ease of adjustability.

Sometimes ease of adjustability != good

 

I'm using a missing link and the stock map is NOT seeing ANY boost.

 

This is a issue with design, not tuning. It runs 90% of how I would LIKE it to run right now. That other 10% won't come with the injector setup the way it is, period.

Originally posted by Renner:

Of course!

 

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rl:

Ohh yeah we got my buddies 951 going last night. smile.gif It kicks all sorts of ass. it has just about all the mods that the one you built does, but we dont have a boost controller on it yet. Hopefully next week. smile.gif Thanks for the help with that smile.gif

 

If you still have problems with that Honda and you are out of options, you might want to check out that HKS AIC, just might have to sell some of the other stuff. It was very straight forward, and did what it needed to do. The only issue I had with it was that the injector driver amp gave off a pretty large amount of electromagnetic interference, which messed up the spark signal on the dyno pulls, so don't put it near the ECU.

 

If your buddy doesn't mind modding his plenum, getting the injectors behind the throttle body will help with some of the puddling that I am sure you are getting, and should improve the driveability. </font>

The kid doesn't want to spend anymore money. When he does, the Secondary injectors will go and I'll get the other harnesses for the E-manage and have him get larger normal injectors. The E-manage actually works REALLY well, with the laptop interface and their MAP sensor its supposed to work very well. Without the software its pretty basic.

 

With 2 injectors it would be tough to get distribution correct, but I thought about welding nipples to the upper plenum, but they would be hard to fit and distribution still wouldn't be perfect (though better).

 

 

I might see if I can find a used HKS AIC for cheap on Ebay or something. smile.gif

I guess I should have said that not ALL of them are bad. You have a Porsche for every occasion don't you?

 

I'm using a MF2 that uses dual 440cc Lucas injectors right BEFORE the throttle body for a h23 turbo car I just got done building (well, I did the turbo, passen did the rest).

 

He has a E-manage which would control the secondary injectors and would work decent, however passen sold him some of what he didn't need (harnesses)and didn't sell him what he needed (software).

 

The MF2 uses 8 potometers at 1,000rpm intervals to control fuel, and that's it. You don't have very much 'fine tuning' available besides what you can curve with the E-manage, so the crossover points from vaccuum to boost suck. Not to mention the delays because the fuel has to travel over a foot, around bends, to reach the intake valve. This makes for a VERY rich condition during shifts. To top it off all it knows is RPM and Pressure, you can set it up on a throttle switch, but as you know on a turbo car that wont work so well. So at part throttle under 3 pounds at 4k rpm its getting the same amount of fuel from the secondaries as WOT under 3lbs of boost at 4k rpm.

 

Compared to what is available now its a VERY shitty way to control fuel.

 

Now if it had 4 additional injectors IN the intake runners then I could see it working much better. The way this is set up is plain shitty in every aspect.

 

Granted, I'm used to tuning fords that work off of a hot wire air meter, with many more functions available using cutting edge (in the ford tuning world) software so I am a little biased.

 

I managed to get it to have a nice AFR under part throttle and WOT, as well as have good driveability (when he brought me the car straight from passen, it wouldn't idle AT ALL when hot, and every time you took your foot off the gas it would die). It still hiccups (loads up) from time to time if you are cruising at ~3k and romp on it. You have to roll into the throttle to get a smooth transition. On a sudden lift under ANY boost and the air/fuel drops below 9:1.

 

In closing, people need to learn to do things right, and not invest money in the wrong areas. A Fuel system is the most important part of an engine, yet most people pay the least amount of attention to it and that pisses baby Jesus off.

 

Ohh yeah we got my buddies 951 going last night. smile.gif It kicks all sorts of ass. it has just about all the mods that the one you built does, but we dont have a boost controller on it yet. Hopefully next week. smile.gif Thanks for the help with that smile.gif

 

[ 23. October 2003, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: rl ]

Originally posted by Stinky Pete:

Naa, you just suck at the tuning

All nonsense aside, there are better ways of getting fuel for close to the same amount of money.

LOL! I didnt say I couldnt make them work well, I just said they suck. smile.gif

 

And wouldnt any GOOD tuner agree that these things suck? In-fact some tuners wouldnt even touch cars with these setups because they are so horrible.

 

[ 23. October 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: rl ]

They suck horribly and no car should ever be forced to use them.

 

That is all.

 

 

Rob

I made a spreadsheet to make it easy to convert PSI to pressure and convert CFM to LB/MIN at different temperatures. Lemme know if it would help you. smile.gif

http://people.redhat.com/blizzard/mozilla/mozilla-star.png

Is it only happening when she is on the gas say more than 50% throttle?

Originally posted by The Pizza Man:

I was going to get an adjustable cam gear anyway. Thanks for the help. graemlins/thumb.gif

 

Ive got basically just about everything I need (except a head). The one that I got at the JY had a nice crack in one of the exhaust seats. I *think* I just might have enough money after taxes to get that Esslinger Aluminum head, which would be ideal (better flow and less detonation pron).

 

My block is getting bored as we speak and the crank is being knife edged (at M&M of course, thanks RL ). Once I figure out what kind of bore I have on the block I will order my pistons, probably Diamond's or JE's. I haven't decided If I will have M&M buid the block or do it myself . Id like to do it myself but Im afraid I will really mess something up. We'll see.....

 

After I get the motor the way I want it I will buy an 87-93 Mustang Notch. Preferably with a 2.3l NA already in there. We'll see where it goes though. This is my first project and I think its coming along pretty well.

 

Mike over at M&M is awesome to work with. He was very busy and REALLY took the time to look at what I wanted to do and what he could help me out with. Granted thats his job but he made a customer out of me. (Thanks again RL)

Sweet shit! smile.gif Glad you like M&M they kick ass. Have them assymble the engine, you have a lot of money in it, not a goood 'learning' engine smile.gif

Tell Mike Rob sent ya! I owe him $20 for a ring set still, I should probably pay him

Originally posted by The Pizza Man:

Yup.

Install it straight up and get a adjustable cam gear, wouldn't that be the best option? I know its what is commonly done. Using a degree wheel wouldn't be necessary.

 

What head do you have? What the shit is this thing going in?

 

I could get you a complete xr4Ti motor, harness (best stand-alone harness) and computer for like $350 prolly. My friend has one sitting in his garage that he isnt going to use. It has a knife-edged lower and half gutted upper, besides that its stock.