noob + liter bike = ass over teakettle

[Moto-Brian]

I'm trying to sort out the info here... Were these kids trying to catch up and just got in too hot and had the trailer to contend with? I guess the video is too slow or has been slowed down as I am not sure where the liter bike comes into play. Fuck, the kid could have been on a Ninja 250 and still ass packed the trailer... Dunno.

From the looks, he and the group were going too fast, saw the trailer and MAYBE the guy in the truck/trailer just got to the turn and didn't signal, etc.

Closing speeds are something that most riders at a lower ability level have issue with. But, I will say that even at an advanced level, when you are closing on something that is going a shit load slower than it should be, it is tough to judge and react.

I'm not defending - and I am not going to read whatever the comments were, etc. But, I really don't see where it is a liter bike and a newbie rider situation unless I have more details. I am assuming the kid was playing catch up and just got in way too hot?

Whatever the case, he's as lucky as shit. Amazing...

[Scruit]

I'm trying to sort out the info here... Were these kids trying to catch up and just got in too hot and had the trailer to contend with? I guess the video is too slow or has been slowed down as I am not sure where the liter bike comes into play. Fuck, the kid could have been on a Ninja 250 and still ass packed the trailer... Dunno.

From the looks, he and the group were going too fast, saw the trailer and MAYBE the guy in the truck/trailer just got to the turn and didn't signal, etc.

Closing speeds are something that most riders at a lower ability level have issue with. But, I will say that even at an advanced level, when you are closing on something that is going a shit load slower than it should be, it is tough to judge and react.

I'm not defending - and I am not going to read whatever the comments were, etc. But, I really don't see where it is a liter bike and a newbie rider situation unless I have more details. I am assuming the kid was playing catch up and just got in way too hot?

Whatever the case, he's as lucky as shit. Amazing...

Looks like:

- n00b rider on a far too powerful bike riding at the back of the pack, possibly left behind and running hot to catch up

- Pack slowed down for the trailer turning (they had no trouble seeing it!)

- n00b was either showing off by splitting the pack intentionally or didn't realize the pack had slowed down and had to split the pack to avoid hitting a bike

- Once the n00b started splitting the pack I'm sure he saw the trailer and thought; "Here comes the suck."

NEVER ride faster than you are comfortable with in a pack. If the group leaves you behind then you shouldn't be riding with them for many reasons:

- No good riders would intentionally leave a n00b behind on a group ride. It's up to the tailgunner to make sure there are not stragglers, and the road captain should keep the pack together. If the pack is too long for the RC to see the back of then him and the tailgunner need intercoms. If they leave you behind then they are not worth riding with.

- No good group riders will force a n00b to outride his skill to keep up. That's how you get n00bs killed. They are too dangerous to ride with.

- Outriding your skill will make you crash. That makes YOU too dangerous to ride with.

I agree with n00d to the front. If it's your first ride, or you know you're not as fast, then make sure the RC knows. If they don't want you to ride with them because you'll slow them down then fine - better they vote you off the island than kill you.

I've done many Patriot Guard rides and charity rides and I was always close to the front with the other n00bs until I had a few group rides under my belt.

[serpentracer]

I bet he target fixated on that trailer and couldn't react. probably afraid to use his brakes that hard. something I'm sure a lot of new riders struggle with.

[TheBrown57]

And this is why i preach to put the less experienced riders in the front so they dont try and play catch up and 95% of the people here bitch otherwise and say they should be in back

+1000000 for flounder and eat shit to those that disagree as heres your evidence.....

:trophy:

I agree with you. One of the rides I was on was only 3 guys and we had the least experienced in the back and he did some off roading (no wreck) an after that we put him in the front so he wouldn be trying to catch up. Every stop sign I would tell him which way to go.

(you know who you are )

[serpentracer]

yeah but when they ride slow, everyone else HAS to ride slow.

plus there's a lot more pressure on the guys up front to keep the pace going. something that's too much for most new riders to cope with.

I've seen just as many crashes either way. I'd rather them just stay in back with one of the more experienced guys following at the very end.

[redkow97]

I'm with Brian on this one. I agree that liter bikes are a bad idea for new riders, but this wasnt a power-induced mistake. He didn't hit the trailer at 100mph, and a 250 can hit 100...

He should never have been on a group ride to begin with, and frankly "experienced" riders often fuck up and make mistakes on group rides as well. The bikes ahead blocked his view. Bad mistake on a ZX10, bad mistake on a 250.

[donkason]

I'm with Redkow and Brian. I wouldn't suggest anything more than a GS500 for a nOOb, but you can get hurt bad either way. In this case he was going to get jacked up on any bike.

When I bought my VTX at the Powersports store on 23 in Lewis Center they had a wadded GS500 fairing hung up on the wall. It was a nOOb that left the parking lot, slammed into a car, and totaled his brand new bike. The fairing was next to a sign notifying customers of free delivery if they weren't comfortable driving home.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

[J_Copeland]

My opinion is that newer riders should never ride sweeper in a group.

That is unless you have an experienced rider back there with you.

[Moto-Brian]

I bet he target fixated on that trailer and couldn't react. probably afraid to use his brakes that hard. something I'm sure a lot of new riders struggle with.

I understand the video a bit better at this point and think your assesment is dead on. I do NOT think this BS that it is a noob on a liter bike is the reasoning. Again, noob on a 250 would have ate a shit burger just as easily. It is a lack of skill and ability/experience that led to the issue.

You can argue that the liter bike was too much speed, but consider a current gen 600. Kid could EASILY get in over his head with almost any current crop sportbike.

I just hate the guys blaming liter bikes. I've had several friends step into a liter bike and do just fine.

I also wouldn't discount that it could have easily been an "experienced" or a veteran rider on such a bike also. I've seen what people would consider an "experienced" rider do stupid shit or just plain ol make a poor decision and do something similar. It's just the factors that none of us know for sure and shouldn't discredit what happened as simply being a noob and a big CC motorcycle.

Dunno. Maybe it was stated he was newer, maybe they stated some of the details and maybe I should go and read through the details. But, it is less bike size and more ability and skill level.

Just remember one simple idea. You can have YEARS of experience. Doesn't always mean that all those years are years of GOOD experience. If you do shit wrong for years and never eat shit, doesn't mean you are doing it right...

[Moto-Brian]

I'm with Redkow and Brian. I wouldn't suggest anything more than a GS500 for a nOOb, but you can get hurt bad either way. In this case he was going to get jacked up on any bike.

When I bought my VTX at the Powersports store on 23 in Lewis Center they had a wadded GS500 fairing hung up on the wall. It was a nOOb that left the parking lot, slammed into a car, and totaled his brand new bike. The fairing was next to a sign notifying customers of free delivery if they weren't comfortable driving home.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

Hell, we had a kid on a 883 that totalled the thing in less than 100 miles. Just missed a turn and hit a pole. Bike destroyed and his pride nuked. He said he was doing maybe 60 mph and the turn he crashed in was not even a marked slower turn we all knew. Shit happens.

Oh, he was a new rider also.

Had a several year experienced rider that had been to the Gap for several years and was one of those guys that could embarras anyone on a sportbike with his ST1100. But, fate caught him off guard and he blew a turn down there, hit a rail and died. He did several track days and was an accomplished rider in my mind. He just got in over his head and ate it.

[Brownsfan1]

Big liter bikes are not to blame. My brother in law is a new rider and rode a 1000 for his first time on the road. I made sure not to push him past his comfort limit.

[cOoTeR]

Liter bike + dumbass is to blame. Not everyone who gets on a bike is level headed enough to stay within their telnet of abilities. A liter bike makes it easy to out ride your abilities.

[Brownsfan1]

I agree but I've seen stupid on a small liter bike too.

[Reimbrandt]

The only thng is on a under powered bike its a lot harder to get into trouble stupid wise..... Agreed that idiots that cant ride are just like idiots who cant drive..... Not payn attention and dumb decisions. I started on a gs550...... Best thing i coulda done. Sport bikes are so much more agressive...... Need a level head for em

[Brownsfan1]

I agree a level head is needed, but the newer small liter bikes have plenty of power to get into trouble with.

[donkason]

I must say this has been the most civil debate on this subject I have ever seen. I was a member of other forums where people would flame and spaz on this subject.

OR RULES!

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

[JohnG]

I must say this has been the most civil debate on this subject I have ever seen. I was a member of other forums where people would flame and spaz on this subject.

OR RULES!

^ This.

On the other hand, I think you guys are way to critical of the kid, handing out good advice to keep others from making the same mistakes will only decrease the amount of AWESOME youtube video out there...

[CBBaron]

I understand the video a bit better at this point and think your assesment is dead on. I do NOT think this BS that it is a noob on a liter bike is the reasoning. Again, noob on a 250 would have ate a shit burger just as easily. It is a lack of skill and ability/experience that led to the issue.

You can argue that the liter bike was too much speed, but consider a current gen 600. Kid could EASILY get in over his head with almost any current crop sportbike.

I just hate the guys blaming liter bikes. I've had several friends step into a liter bike and do just fine.

I also wouldn't discount that it could have easily been an "experienced" or a veteran rider on such a bike also. I've seen what people would consider an "experienced" rider do stupid shit or just plain ol make a poor decision and do something similar. It's just the factors that none of us know for sure and shouldn't discredit what happened as simply being a noob and a big CC motorcycle.

Dunno. Maybe it was stated he was newer, maybe they stated some of the details and maybe I should go and read through the details. But, it is less bike size and more ability and skill level.

Just remember one simple idea. You can have YEARS of experience. Doesn't always mean that all those years are years of GOOD experience. If you do shit wrong for years and never eat shit, doesn't mean you are doing it right...

A rider could have done the same stunt with a 250 but likely would not have.

Coming out of a corner the rider probably hit the gas seeing a straight away and a big gap. The liter bike rapidly picks up speed and in seconds is going much quicker than the rider realizes. The 250 accelerates much slower and requires several shifts. Unless there was a very long straight the 250 would not get much above 60 while the liter is already over 100. Then the rider realizes the group is slowing. Both bike slow about the same with an inexperienced rider but 100-0 takes over twice as much space as 60-0. Hence the accident is much more likely on a liter bike with an inexperienced rider.

However you are correct there is not much difference between a 600cc and a Busa as far as this kind of thing goes. But there is a big difference on a 250 or even a 650.

Craig

[Goldie]

Damn. I hope he recovers quickly and fully, but I have to admit, I sort of chuckled when I saw him flying through the air with the greatest of ease. Darwin award for sure.

[flounder]

yeah but when they ride slow, everyone else HAS to ride slow.

plus there's a lot more pressure on the guys up front to keep the pace going. something that's too much for most new riders to cope with.

I've seen just as many crashes either way. I'd rather them just stay in back with one of the more experienced guys following at the very end.

Bullshit,, You put them in the front, tell them where to stop or turn and wait. then you give them a head start and wait for them to get some ground in front of you.. Then they will ride at their own pace without feeling pressure from someone behind them. A rider is going to push it much harder following then what they will going on their own.

[Brownsfan1]

Thats what I did with my brother in law I let him lead so he was at his own pace not mine.

[Pokey]

I wouldn't have been riding with him to begin with.

[VfrColumbus]

Just remember one simple idea. You can have YEARS of experience. Doesn't always mean that all those years are years of GOOD experience. If you do shit wrong for years and never eat shit, doesn't mean you are doing it right...

First of all, I'm glad that the kid came out with only broken arm & leg. Not that it is good, but it could have been much worse.

Secondly, I agree with the statement above, I have been riding for 25 years, I thought I had 25 years of experience, but it turned out that I only had 1 year experience repeated 25 times .....

But seriously, experienced riders also do make mistake at times.

Edited September 12, 2012 by VfrColumbus

[redkow97]

Big liter bikes are not to blame. My brother in law is a new rider and rode a 1000 for his first time on the road. I made sure not to push him past his comfort limit.

hasn't screwed up YET.

I'm not saying the bike is ever at fault, nor am I saying that it's impossible for someone to start on a liter bike and not crash. Of course it can be done, the liter bikes just add to the ways you can mess up.

For a total newb on a 250, you can already:

- tip over

- lock the front wheel

- endo over the bars

- mis-judge a turn

- be going too fast and out-ride your skillset

larger bikes just add the potential for more speed into the last two points on that list, and on a powerful enough bike, they add in additional ways to mess up, namely:

- accidental power wheelies/looping the bike (I'll concede that you can still dump the clutch and wheelie a small bike, but not power-wheelie it)

- spinning the rear wheel

- tank-slappers

The issues immediately above are virtually impossible on a bike with 50 or so horsepower. There are enough ways for a new rider to make a mistake on a small bike. A larger bike just adds additional methods of fucking yourself. At the same time, the potential for higher speeds (150+ versus 100 or 115 is a HUGE difference) allows new riders to get in deeper and even further over their heads. No new rider needs a bike that is capable of more than double the speed limit on the highway.

"we don't have a problem with high performance bikes so much as low-performance riders." Obviously a liter bike isn't an automatic death-sentence for a new rider, but it definitely doesn't tilt the odds in his or her favor either.

Edited September 12, 2012 by redkow97

[redkow97]

Thats what I did with my brother in law I let him lead so he was at his own pace not mine.

Fair enough, but he can still mis-judge a turn and go in hotter than his skill level allows.

While you can never eliminate that possibility, if a new rider can safely maneuver a given turn at 50mph, a 250 only allows you to screw up that turn with a 50mph margin of error. the max you would need to "panic brake" is from 100 to 50 before making the turn. (100mph top speed - 50 to get to 50)

a liter bike widens that margin for error by up to 80mph (180mph top speed - 130 to get to 50. 130-50 = 80)

Yes, common sense can reign that in, but if there's anything YouTube has taught us it's that common sense isn't so common. I did things on my EX500 that would have ended in a crash on a 600. I can say that with virtual certainty.

Edited September 12, 2012 by redkow97