Columbus, you wild.

[Geeto67]

The difference is, I’m not here to argue against someone else’s opinion like yourself. He is entitled to his thoughts, you yours and me mine. I’m not soapboxing trying to undermine or sway anyone to my opinion.

 

I can see value in his thoughts as well as some in yours. Unfortunately the current climate has people either trying to further support what they believe or arguing on behalf that the other side is wrong. That is my only opinion on the matter.

 

I'll be honest, I find this to be the greater value in conversations like this. I know I am not going to change Joe's mind, but if it is out there for someone else to read and find merit in both sides and really think about it and make their own decision then its worth it.

 

One of the things that bugs me about the car/bike hobby is that a lot of people with some very strong opinions feel like they own the hobby. They feel this way because too many of us spent a lot of time rolling our eyes and walking away instead of engaging and it has fostered a bubble. I'm kind of tired of running into people who think if you love hot rods and fast cars you must be some gun toting, Christ fearing, conservative and fuck you if you are not then you aren't a real "car guy" but some "infiltrator". I'm here and vocal because I want to remind those that think they own the hobby there are people that don't agree, and they aren't some faceless label but members of your peer group. I mean, this is a car forum and I talk more about politics here than I do in my actual job which is politics dependent, just trying to avoid this place becoming an echo chamber.

[gillbot]

I'll be honest, I find this to be the greater value in conversations like this. I know I am not going to change Joe's mind, but if it is out there for someone else to read and find merit in both sides and really think about it and make their own decision then its worth it.

 

Personally, I think it would carry more influence if it didn’t come off as soapboxing, but that’s just my $0.02 and probably not worth a cent.

[Geeto67]

Personally, I think it would carry more influence if it didn’t come off as soapboxing, but that’s just my $0.02 and probably not worth a cent.

 

I am going to get accused of that no matter what. I tried the hit 'em with facts way, I tried the appeal to sensibility, I tried being polite and it didn't change a thing. I kinda like the feed them a counterpoint in their own aggressive tough talk rhetoric the best, not because it's effective just because its personally satisfying.

[gillbot]

I am going to get accused of that no matter what. I tried the hit 'em with facts way, I tried the appeal to sensibility, I tried being polite and it didn't change a thing. I kinda like the feed them a counterpoint in their own aggressive tough talk rhetoric the best, not because it's effective just because its personally satisfying.

 

Why do you feel the need to “hit them with facts” though, let them have their opinions and state yours, then walk away. You just argue for the sake of arguing.

[2 Sweet]

According to Joe, In every single case it was 100% your fault that happened. Do you agree?

 

You're putting words in his mouth. And going by that train of thought using your logic, you must be concluding that gillbot only survived those interactions because he's white.

[Geeto67]

You're putting words in his mouth. And going by that train of thought using your logic, you must be concluding that gillbot only survived those interactions because he's white.

 

Am I though? Is there another way to interpret this without coming to that conclusion:

 

Fear of surviving an interaction with LEO is a direct reflection of the person's actions. No case is won outside the courtroom, so comply and get your day in court. You don't have to like it. I won't put myself in their shoes, because they don't fit. They did something stupid. I don't wear those stupid shoes. So they just don't fit me, and for most people. That's the privilege I have, I'm not doing stupid things.

 

 

I accept that there are a group of Americans that fear LE because they were brought up to hate and fear them. I also accept that there are people who do stupid things and have a reason to fear interaction with LE that is going to hold them accountable for their actions. I have nothing to fear for my actions, so again, their shoes do not fit me. I conduct myself within the Constitution and the laws of where I live. I understand that should I decide to violate laws, there are consequences. I am accountable for my actions. The people I can not relate to are those who do not want to be accountable for their actions,and think they get to play the victim card when they are held accountable.

[gillbot]

Am I though? Is there another way to interpret this without coming to that conclusion:

 

You can interpret it however you see fit, others have that same choice. You cannot decide what they interpret. You are trying to skew their interpretation by claiming to state fact, when it is mostly your opinion.

[TTQ B4U]

End of day the number of actual number of cases like MN are single digit low per year if that. Out of millions of encounters. To freak out over those odds is stupid and pure media hype.

[gillbot]

End of day the number of actual number of cases like MN are single digit low per year if that. Out of millions of encounters. To freak out over those odds is stupid and pure media hype.

 

Unless you are the recipient of that “one in a million encounter”.

[TTQ B4U]

Unless you are the recipient of that “one in a million encounter”.

 

 

Agree but I don't go around living my life around exceptions or such rare instances. None of us should. I think the saying is something to the effect that In the persuit of perfection we miss out on excellence. dumb.

[gillbot]

Agree but I don't go around living my life around exceptions or such rare instances. None of us should. I think the saying is something to the effect that In the persuit of perfection we miss out on excellence. dumb.

 

I’m not taking a side, but that’s an easy statement to make when you aren’t on the receiving end of such hate.

[TTQ B4U]

I’m not taking a side, but that’s an easy statement to make when you aren’t on the receiving end of such hate.

 

 

Until you realize the hate and numbers involved in it compared to black on black shootings and killings nationwide. Not.even.close yet hardly a word or a thing about the latter. Its media BS and politics.

[Otis Nice]

[greg1647545532]

May 25, 2020 (MINNEAPOLIS) On Monday evening, shortly after 8:00 pm, officers from the Minneapolis Police Department responded to the 3700 block of Chicago Avenue South on a report of a forgery in progress. Officers were advised that the suspect was sitting on top of a blue car and appeared to be under the influence.

 

Two officers arrived and located the suspect, a male believed to be in his 40s, in his car. He was ordered to step from his car. After he got out, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later.

 

Without the bystanders filming, would we even know about George Floyd? Without the protests dating back to Ferguson, would the MPD have even investigated this incident?

 

We can say these are "one in millions" events, but black communities have been saying they aren't since... forever.

 

We can say that, sure, these things happened after Reconstruction, or sure, these things happened during Jim Crow, or sure, these things happened until the Civil Rights Act of 1965, or sure, these things happened until body cams became a thing, but now, in 2021, they're "one in millions." Except black communities are still saying they're not. And now that cops are under a spotlight and being recorded constantly, we're finding more.

 

I don't want to sound like I'm obsessed with Otis' scolding of me, but he did recently accuse me of not wanting to listen to what the "other side" had to say, and rather just spouting off about how right I am and hearing the sound of my own voice. In that light, what I see in this thread is a bunch of mostly white people spouting off to black Americans (indirectly) about how it is -- saying these events are one in a million, and these events wouldn't happen if black people knew how to act around cops, and this perceived ongoing systemic problem of policing in black communities is actually just the media fanning the flames of division.

 

And really, haven't similar arguments been used for 150 years?

 

Maybe it's time to spend a few decades listening to what black communities are saying and trying to understand, rather than dismissing their concerns and whitesplaining how it's just "the media" or a "victimization complex."

 

I mean, I'm white, and in all of my interactions with the cops I haven't been shot. It's easy for me to watch the video of Ma'Khia Bryant and see a suspect with a knife get killed in order to save an innocent victim. It's a little bit harder to see a troubled 16 year old foster child and a system that failed them. And it's really hard for me to see the decades and centuries of distrust that might lead black Americans to watch that video and still not be inclined to think that the police did the right thing. But I'm trying to see those things more.

[TTQ B4U]

Without the bystanders filming, would we even know about George Floyd?

 

well, there would be a dead body and eyewitnesses, so yes, it's more likely than not that we would. no doubt the video made a difference all around though but in the end, yes, we would know. We can say these are "one in millions" events, but black communities have been saying they aren't since... forever.

 

And now that cops are under a spotlight and being recorded constantly, we're finding more.

numbers still show they are but a minority of situations among millions of encounters.

 

I don't want to sound like I'm obsessed with Otis' scolding of me, but he did recently accuse me of not wanting to listen to what the "other side" had to say, and rather just spouting off about how right I am and hearing the sound of my own voice.

can't comment on the encounter with the other CR member, but the last sentence is true among most people. some more than others but in your case I would simply say you're engaged in debates and conversations but that's a good thing.

 

In that light, what I see in this thread is a bunch of mostly white people spouting off to black Americans (indirectly) about how it is -- saying these events are one in a million, and these events wouldn't happen if black people knew how to act around cops, and this perceived ongoing systemic problem of policing in black communities is actually just the media fanning the flames of division.

it is a lot of media fanning the flames though. just look at how quickly they tried to pounce on the MaKhia situation and so many others.

 

Maybe it's time to spend a few decades listening to what black communities are saying and trying to understand, rather than dismissing their concerns and whitesplaining how it's just "the media" or a "victimization complex."

I think people have been listening. Even over the past 5-10 years we've seen LEO's tried and brought to justice. I don't think the masses are "dismissing" anything. Many are asking for accountability BOTH WAYS and for personal responsibility to be part of everyone's lives.

 

I mean, I'm white, and in all of my interactions with the cops I haven't been shot.

Again, it's HIGHLY unrelated to your skin tone but 99.9% related to how you behaved before and during your encounter. Details do make a difference and matter. Millions of non-white people every year survive their encounters with police just the same.

 

It's a little bit harder to see a troubled 16 year old foster child and a system that failed them.

True, and harder yet for me is to see those same failures try and get pawned off on a cop doing his job and a country of people who saw the video still try and blame said cop not the system. Those numbers far outweigh the bad dirty cops and THAT'S what's scary and sad. There are more "bad" misinformed people who are flat-out wrong on that situation and all the others than there are bad cops or instances of wrong doing by police. To me, the latter is more concerning because we as a society don't address it and the media is part of it. In the meantime bad cops are being addressed. It's time to get all those misinformed people to realize they were wrong and to stop acting like the cops did something wrong there and to STOP ignoring what led up to the matter which is what brings the cops to scenes in the first place. Too many focus on the details after police are involved and continue to ignore the back-story.

 

And it's really hard for me to see the decades and centuries of distrust that might lead black Americans to watch that video and still not be inclined to think that the police did the right thing. But I'm trying to see those things more.

it's good that you and many others are paying attention. I however don't believe we should be providing any excuses here though. Those decades and centuries aren't ingrained in people at birth, it's taught to them. Jacob Blake was a thug and he gets no-pass from me for his behavior that day. I'm sorry but I won't ever buy into that. There are Jacob Blakes everywhere and they need no excuse or hall-pass.

 

We don't need to be teaching crap like critical race theory in schools or businesses. What we need is to teach people how to not be douche bags in society and how to raise a family and productive contributing citizens. Common sense and normal acceptable behaviors are what's needed. Nothing you and I as people, let alone being singled out as "white" has anything to do with this. That's personal responsibility on the part of everyone.

 

It's time to stop pointing fingers and going on about the past. Time to start having individuals be more focused on solutions going forward and that involves behavior change on their part. I'm all for holding the police accountable to do this but just the same and it's time for the public as a whole to realize they too have "work to do" and change how they behave. Perhaps if they did that to begin with there wouldn't even be an encounter with police. It's not just meme material or sarcasm to say that if you simply do those things people won't get shot by the cops. It's true. They might actually lead a more productive and happy life too. Imagine that.

[Tractor]

I got an 84 yr old black neighbor, we sit and chat all the time and he's never had trouble with the law, always been respectful. He enjoys farming and worked labor jobs before he retired and is a great man. We talk because the whole neighborhood here is his family and so many young guys try to be punks, many move to Charlotte and get in with the gangs there, many get killed and I've witnessed funerals of my neighbors getting killed by cops during traffic stops, one happened 1-2 years ago a few miles down the road. There was kind of an investigation and then nothing, but this is likely the most corrupt police department I've encountered. Don't believe me, look up some of the stuff they've done, a rather entertaining example is NUDE CAT FIGHTS being operated or at least helped along by the county sheriffs office. They were basically forcing women to participate to get released etc, the sheriff ended up getting fired/resigning, but thats just a weird example.

 

I personally have always been very afraid of what "could" happen in a traffic stop and I commented once on that many years ago on here. I have never liked that they have so much control of the situations and that if you want to get ruffed up or worse all you have to do is disagree with them on an issue out on the side of the road. Now with video I believe they are acting better, but we are still seeing the results of bad habits and training which need fixed. You can watch hours of videos on youtube of people pushing back against the police on the side of the road sometimes the accused is a lawyer proving a point for their youtube channel, sometimes its just a troll and it gets pretty concerning.

[Tractor]

I had an interesting thought yesterday on the matter. Right now if you disagree with the cops while they are interacting with you about speeding, jaywalking whatever and you become more annoying than they want to deal with that day they simply arrest you and drag your ass downtown. If you lucky and didn't get thrown on the ground and fucked up in the process you get your day in court and if you were in the right your good, but you still might have gotten fucked up for something you were right about and maybe spent the weekend in jail for something you didn't do.

 

It would be a cool thought exercise to imagine a world where the interaction is simple one of "hey you fucked up, take this ticket, we got your info so he's your paperwork" and with that having happened you either get it cleared up or it haunts your ability to keep or get a job, get a DL, go to school, anything really. We live in a technological age why not use it instead of acting like cavemen. I do realize some people will always need the caveman treatment, but a court could decide that later unless we got a really really bad situation that has to be handled immediatly. IDK just some thoughts and there's always going to be the <1% encounters we can't compensate for and they are always going to make the news and make the whole look bad.

[coltboostin]

well, there would be a dead body and eyewitnesses, so yes, it's more likely than not that we would.

 

Let's be real for a second, without a video that went viral, there is a ZERO percent chance it would have had the effect it had, even in the local communtiy. There is also NO chance you would have even been aware of it.

 

The internet is absolutely a blessing and a curse, and to this day I cant figure out which it is more of.

[Furloaf]

With no video and the tox report GF would just be another fentanyl OD.

 

I do scratch my head as to why nearly every killed person championed by BLM was a thug acting thuggish, surely if the police killings happened as often as BLM claims then there would be stories of innocents. Breonna Taylor doesn't count, she was a drug dealer. I did some quick napkin math and being conservative in assumptions came up with like 300,000 black person & police interactions per year. I think for 2019 the number claimed was 19 killed by police and 5 of those were unarmed. It really is quite rare - not endemic of the the entire police in our country being all bad. To make that claim is just asinine.

 

I'm all for police accountability and cracking down on police brutality. I feel it's mostly the police unions that are the biggest problem.

 

Edit: I want to be clear I think no-knock raids and for the most part 99% of raids are entirely uncalled for.

[Otis Nice]

I don't want to sound like I'm obsessed with Otis' scolding of me, but he did recently accuse me of not wanting to listen to what the "other side" had to say, and rather just spouting off about how right I am and hearing the sound of my own voice.

 

Is that what you gathered from this...

 

That's not true but also when taking hard stances and engaging in polarizing convo's certainly you understand that others will also voice their opinions both agreeing and disagreeing with you.

 

Furthermore, I'd say a little bit of almost everyone in political threads has typed a thing or two intentionally "going at" someone. It goes back and forth. It happens. Folks are passionate, and that's fine. It's not that "NOBODY cares" what you have to say but you've typed some very pointed responses. That's when the "both ways" comes into play.

 

No love lost for anyone on my end, especially folks I've never even met. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

...in response to your claim that...

 

CR has also made it clear that none of you give a shit about hearing what I have to say....

 

...?

 

Sorry, but I fail to see how that was "scolding". It was a mere response with no malice intended. I also fail to see any accusatory remarks there. Maybe my typed words did not convey my thoughts as clearly as I thought they had.

[greg1647545532]

I don't want to sound like I'm obsessed with Otis' scolding of me, but he did recently accuse me of not wanting to listen to what the "other side" had to say, and rather just spouting off about how right I am and hearing the sound of my own voice.

 

Is that what you gathered from this...

 

It's what I gathered when you said pretty much exactly that.

 

You're more concerned with "being right" than being heard and more importantly than hearing others. That much has been proven time and again.

 

Shrug. Maybe you were just being friendly.

 

Anyway, I wanted to say thanks for calling Panduh out on his blatant racism in this thread. Nobody else seemed to want to.

[oh8sti]

you didnt read my immediate correction to that - I misspoke with an incomplete thought, just like biden does when he talks about children. You forgive him, you can forgive me.

[greg1647545532]

you didnt read my immediate correction to that

 

I read it. I still appreciate Otis calling you out, which is why I said what I said to him. Didn't need you to jump in.

[Mace1647545504]

I looked at the #s..from 2016..so I'm sure they are off but could the problem be that 12.2 percent of the population committing about 25% of the crimes have any bearing on why the police act as they do??

 

These are figures from the FBI..there is no prejudice ..just numbers

 

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21

[greg1647545532]

I looked at the #s..from 2016..so I'm sure they are off but could the problem be that 12.2 percent of the population committing about 25% of the crimes have any bearing on why the police act as they do??

 

These are figures from the FBI..there is no prejudice ..just numbers

 

Mace..... come on. Can you think of any way that prejudice in policing tactics (stop and frisk, driving while Black), prejudice in enforcement (Blacks getting disproportionately charged for the equal crimes, and receiving harsher sentences), and prejudice in institutions which affect poverty rates (which is disproportionately high in black communities) might manifest itself in African Americans disproportionately showing up more in FBI crime statistics?

 

You can't just drop a turd like that into the thread and then say "no prejudice" when the entire national discussion is about how prejudice can affect black communities in exactly the way that you're pointing out.

 

Plus, this is a fucking meme at this point..

 

Despite Being Only 13% of the Population is a copypasta used to satirize those who recite racial crime statistics online, often in the context of Ben Shapiro Destroys memes.