What did you do to your bike today?

[Tonik]

3 minutes ago, what said:

Makes me wonder what tire wear differences you'd see between someone who brakes before entry and someone who trail brakes. 

If you are trail braking in the corner you will get more cupping because you are putting more force on the front tire. You have seen me, I am on the brakes before entry....then on the throttle through the whole corner. So my front tire is lighter....I get zero cupping.

[Tpoppa]

23 minutes ago, Tonik said:

I am on the brakes before entry....then on the throttle through the whole corner. So my front tire is lighter....I get zero cupping.

This is what you should be doing on the street, even mach retard street riding.  

Set your corner entry speed early, before you begin the turn then accelerate through it.  If touch my brakes in a turn it either means I misjudged something, or there's an unexpected obstacle in the road.  

Edit** I can't say that this will eliminate cupping (there are other factors), but it will play a role in how your tire wears.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Tpoppa

[what]

1 hour ago, Tonik said:

If you are trail braking in the corner you will get more cupping because you are putting more force on the front tire. You have seen me, I am on the brakes before entry....then on the throttle through the whole corner. So my front tire is lighter....I get zero cupping.

Figured as much. My track bike's front and rear are cupping after just 1 day. Running Q3's at 32/33 on that bike. Was hoping to get more life out of them on the track than 2 or 3 days but it doesn't seem likely. May try Bridgestones next as it was what the previous owner was running, S21's. Will fit rear without chain rub too. Profile is about 2mm too wide on the Dunlops :/

[Tonik]

18 minutes ago, what said:

Figured as much. My track bike's front and rear are cupping after just 1 day. Running Q3's at 32/33 on that bike. Was hoping to get more life out of them on the track than 2 or 3 days but it doesn't seem likely. May try Bridgestones next as it was what the previous owner was running, S21's. Will fit rear without chain rub too. Profile is about 2mm too wide on the Dunlops :/

Yea, so the goals on the track are different.  You want the shortest lap time.  Every turn has a 'slowest point'.  That point in a turn where you have to be going the slowest you will be going in the entire turn.  Often just before the apex.  On the street we brake before the turn to that speed..or a bit under.  That gives us the margin for error for not knowing the turn exactly, or gravel and so on. On the track you know the turn and the conditions, so you don't slow down that far on entry and you trail brake up to that slowest point.  That keeps your speed up longer...cuts the lap time.

And eats tires.

[Helmutt]

@2talltim Not sure what spec tires you are running, but I've read with bigger tourers like the K1600, it's almost a must to run the A-spec versions that accommodate 750+ pound bikes.  They're cast with a more rigid carcass that supposed to tolerate heft.  I thought we'd discussed somewhere here where I was considering A-spec Angels for my Sprint last spring since it would exceed 750 with me on it, I know Tpoppa was in on the convo.....I ended up going with standard GTs and haven't had any wear issues yet at 3k miles.  Just a thought

[what]

1 minute ago, Tonik said:

Yea, so the goals on the track are different.  You want the shortest lap time.  Every turn has a 'slowest point'.  That point in a turn where you have to be going the slowest you will be going in the entire turn.  Often just before the apex.  On the street we brake before the turn to that speed..or a bit under.  That gives us the margin for error for not knowing the turn exactly, or gravel and so on. On the track you know the turn and the conditions, so you don't slow down that far on entry and you trail brake up to that slowest point.  That keeps your speed up longer...cuts the lap time.

And eats tires.

The even wear on the triumph probably comes from following you on the fall trip.

 

I'll admit I started actively trail braking on the street last spring and it's now become habit. You and Tony are correct though, setting entry speed before gives a slightly larger margin of error in case of gravel/debris/turtle. 

[Tonik]

3 minutes ago, what said:

You and Tony are correct though, setting entry speed before gives a slightly larger margin of error in case of gravel/debris/turtle. 

F' the turtle.  The rule is if you can eat it in one sitting, speed up. You will go right through it.  If it's bigger and will provide a couple of meals...slow down and avoid...cuz it will probably wreck you.

[what]

4 minutes ago, Tonik said:

F' the turtle.  The rule is if you can eat it in one sitting, speed up. You will go right through it.  If it's bigger and will provide a couple of meals...slow down and avoid...cuz it will probably wreck you.

If you hit a turtle mid-corner, you're going to have a bad day. 

 

But that's true for pretty much anything. Except for a beautiful gravel beach, as @Isaac's Papa has shown us. 

[Gixxus Christ!]

24 minutes ago, Tonik said:

F' the turtle.  The rule is if you can eat it in one sitting, speed up. You will go right through it.  If it's bigger and will provide a couple of meals...slow down and avoid...cuz it will probably wreck you.

i LOL'd at this.

[Tonik]

4 minutes ago, Isaac's Papa said:

I also hit deer without crashing. 

 

...and still no cupping. 

Did you eat it in one sitting?

[durk]

20 minutes ago, Isaac's Papa said:

I also hit deer without crashing. 

 

...and still no cupping. 

Every time you talk about this deer incident. This is my response 

[2talltim]

1 hour ago, Hellmutt said:

@2talltim Not sure what spec tires you are running, but I've read with bigger tourers like the K1600, it's almost a must to run the A-spec versions that accommodate 750+ pound bikes.  They're cast with a more rigid carcass that supposed to tolerate heft.  I thought we'd discussed somewhere here where I was considering A-spec Angels for my Sprint last spring since it would exceed 750 with me on it, I know Tpoppa was in on the convo.....I ended up going with standard GTs and haven't had any wear issues yet at 3k miles.  Just a thought

Yea been there done that. Using 2 to 3 sets every year I've tried every A spec, GT spec and touring set up their is. I'm to the point where I'm buying tires on price alone because I know 3k later I'll be doing it again. So far the Stones T30 has given me my best bang for my buck on front and rear I can almost get a second rear gone before the front is too bad. Next set is Stones 023s because got the set for $160 delivered to my door. Looking for even wear now not milage, milage is a mirror illusion on my bike and I'm OK with that.  I won't pay premiums for some brands to get slightly better milage so price is my new tire shopping marching orders and price alone.

Edited February 8, 2017 by 2talltim

[Tpoppa]

I ran several sets of Angel GTs on both my CBR600RR and VFR1200

CBR  425lbs  105hp  44ft/lbs

VFR  625lbs  145hp  82ft/lbs

I get almost the exact same mileage out of the tires, 5.5-6k.    The VFR wears out the front a little bit sooner, the CBR wore out the rear a little sooner.  I did push the CBR a bit harder in the corners, but I rode them mostly the same  

 

 

 

[Tonik]

9 minutes ago, Isaac's Papa said:

Having followed Tim for an afternoon, I will submit my personal opinion. This may be far off, as I've only ever ridden with Timmy that one time, but he looked cozy. I'm going to assume he was in his element and how he normally rolls.

He pushes the front on corner entry and continues that push to the apex. He doesn't really move his body a lot (which is fucking impressive as shit when you think about the speed he's carrying, but also adds weight to the front) and the front just has too much on its plate. I say this because he would enter a corner as fast (often faster) than i would, but I easily caught him on corner exit. A couple times I had to let up to avoid his rear tire. This is probably due to a couple factors. Most noticeably, his line isn't the same as mine. I square my corners to 90 degrees as often as possible. This makes it easier for me to get on the brakes later, tip it in and get vertical quickly and then hammer the gas on exit. Basically, the front end is rarely loaded on the edge. It's also why I have ginormous chicken strips up front. ( ? ) 

Tim likes being sideways. I like being sideways next to him ( ❤️ ).However, this means the front end is pushing the entire time he's off the gas and he's using the tire to help slow his roll. 

This isn't a critique. It's an observation. I do think that I could fix (most of) his tire problem with a few small changes in his riding style. The rest is caused by overworked suspension. 

My unOfficial opinion on the matter is it's a riding style problem more than a suspension problem. 

Fucking cunt is still fast as balls. Not sure I want to help him be faster.  

Dead nuts on assessment, I have seen the same thing. Not sure if I am pulling it off, but I try and do it your way too. Turn later and harder...square it off.

[TimTheAzn]

Just now, Tonik said:

Dead nuts on assessment, I have seen the same thing. Not sure if I am pulling it off, but I try and do it your way too. Turn later and harder...square it off.

I can attest you can square corners off with your limited lean angle with the best of them. I'm still trying to figure it out, actually.

[Tonik]

13 minutes ago, Isaac's Papa said:

 It's also why I have ginormous chicken strips up front. ( ? ) 

Just hit it with one of those 3M Scotch Brite pads.

[Tpoppa]

 

13 minutes ago, Tonik said:

Turn later and harder...square it off.

Pretty much my line.  I stay as far on the outside of the line as I can then tip in as late as possible.  This gives you the max line of site.  It may reduce corner entry speed a bit, but you'll get vertical and on the gas quicker and that'll increase corner exit speed.    

[Tonik]

20 minutes ago, TimTheAzn said:

I can attest you can square corners off with your limited lean angle with the best of them. I'm still trying to figure it out, actually.

 

Remember when I took you aside and said you were one of the smoothest riders I have seen...I am the opposite. I go from straight up to 90 percent lean in a heartbeat. Dunno how I can do it so quick, but I do.  I do know that after a day in the twisties my arms and shoulders are sore.

[2talltim]

56 minutes ago, Isaac's Papa said:

Having followed Tim for an afternoon, I will submit my personal opinion. This may be far off, as I've only ever ridden with Timmy that one time, but he looked cozy. I'm going to assume he was in his element and how he normally rolls.

He pushes the front on corner entry and continues that push to the apex. He doesn't really move his body a lot (which is fucking impressive as shit when you think about the speed he's carrying, but also adds weight to the front) and the front just has too much on its plate. I say this because he would enter a corner as fast (often faster) than i would, but I easily caught him on corner exit. A couple times I had to let up to avoid his rear tire. This is probably due to a couple factors. Most noticeably, his line isn't the same as mine. I square my corners to 90 degrees as often as possible. This makes it easier for me to get on the brakes later, tip it in and get vertical quickly and then hammer the gas on exit. Basically, the front end is rarely loaded on the edge. It's also why I have ginormous chicken strips up front. ( ? ) 

Tim likes being sideways. I like being sideways next to him ( ❤️ ).However, this means the front end is pushing the entire time he's off the gas and he's using the tire to help slow his roll. 

This isn't a critique. It's an observation. I do think that I could fix (most of) his tire problem with a few small changes in his riding style. The rest is caused by overworked suspension. 

My unOfficial opinion on the matter is it's a riding style problem more than a suspension problem. 

Fucking cunt is still fast as balls. Not sure I want to help him be faster.  

Sounds like a well thought out and accurate conclusion to me too. My ass never leaves the seat my shoulders usually stay square with the bike and i probably do lean on the tire to the apex then fucking race bike out. If you see my ass leave the seat or lean into the corner chances are I went in too hot, that's my escape route and i don't use it too often. It's the way I've always ridden and like IP said I really am in my element there. Only other man i know of that rides that way and impresses the fuck out of even me was @bambam. That guy would dive into a corner and body position looked like he was just strolling down the freeway. And you would be behind him thinking "how the fuck did he do that and make it stick?" Folowed him all around the gap the one year when he was on Isabella and I enjoyed every moment of it. 

Edited February 8, 2017 by 2talltim

[Tpoppa]

18 minutes ago, 2talltim said:

My ass never leaves the seat my shoulders usually stay square with the bike 

IMO, that would likely reduce tire life because you are carrying more lean angle than if you were hanging off a bit.

I rode with Bambam quite a bit years ago.  XB9fog (Buell Dave) was another one that was blazing fast while mostly staying on the seat.

[Tonik]

Heck, I even got my donuts trained to lean.

[PhilD'oh!]

I hate all of you.  

 

 

[Helmutt]

[Al Z. Heimer]

I have no idea what the heck I'm doing. 

[Helmutt]

13 minutes ago, Isaac's Papa said:

Absolutely will kill a set of tires. Not only are you using less tire to do more work, your center of gravity didn't change and it's multiplying the forces on that smaller contact patch. Tire wear is the less important issue here. Traction is very limited at those lean angles.

This^^^ And upsetting the bikes geometry by chucking it in on a late apex all the time will likely bite back at some point, especially on street surfaces.  Not saying it cant be mastered, just that it isn't the tried and true methods you'll be taught by pros, so probably isn't a good habit.  Both orgs I've done trackdays with have used identical methods, as well as most of what I've read from other orgs.  Pick your entry point, brake down and settle in easy while getting into position and maintaining corner speed, all in one smooth action.  The less bucking around you do, the smoother you'll be and the faster you'll become.  That's the MO I've learned from it all anyway.